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	<title>Comments on: Blizzard vs MMORPGs</title>
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	<link>http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2009/07/21/blizzard-vs-mmorpgs/</link>
	<description>A blog about MMORPGs like World of Warcraft (WoW) and Everquest 2 (EQ2)</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 17 Mar 2010 03:36:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Gordon</title>
		<link>http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2009/07/21/blizzard-vs-mmorpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-8762</link>
		<dc:creator>Gordon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Jul 2009 10:43:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=1239#comment-8762</guid>
		<description>Awesome comment and very interesting. I take your point about success being relative and yeah, it's very true indeed.

Regarding the financial side of it, I'm often curious what Blizzard does with the cash it makes from WoW. I mean if companies like SOE and Turbine produce new MMOs from the backing of old ones with only 125k subscribers, what's Blizzard doing with the money it's making from 11 million subscribers? Shouldn't they be producing content and expansions at a lot faster pace? Or is it all getting funneled into their next MMO?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Awesome comment and very interesting. I take your point about success being relative and yeah, it&#8217;s very true indeed.</p>
<p>Regarding the financial side of it, I&#8217;m often curious what Blizzard does with the cash it makes from WoW. I mean if companies like SOE and Turbine produce new MMOs from the backing of old ones with only 125k subscribers, what&#8217;s Blizzard doing with the money it&#8217;s making from 11 million subscribers? Shouldn&#8217;t they be producing content and expansions at a lot faster pace? Or is it all getting funneled into their next MMO?</p>
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		<title>By: Brian 'Psychochild' Green</title>
		<link>http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2009/07/21/blizzard-vs-mmorpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-8755</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian 'Psychochild' Green</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Jul 2009 01:07:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=1239#comment-8755</guid>
		<description>WoW really didn't create much in the realm of MMOs.  Let's not forget that part of WoW's success came from the 10+ year history of two highly successful gaming brands; consider how many people will pre-order a Blizzard game no matter what it is and despite how much the internet voices cry it will suck.  Blizzard's success is built upon polish of existing types of gameplay, and in WoW's case it was polish of the EQ (DIKU) style of gameplay and some logical extensions to that gameplay.  This duplication of existing gameplay is one reason why the elder game stuck with raiding for the most part even though it doesn't seem to fit with the rest of the game, thus creating the casuals vs. raiders divide.

Gordon wrote:
&lt;i&gt;SOE obviously believed their main audience was Everquest players....&lt;/i&gt;

This is incorrect from what I've heard.  The target audience was people who tried EQ but didn't like it.  EQ1 sold over a million boxes but retained less than half of that, so (in the old scale of MMOs) that was a sizable audience.  The developers didn't just want to make "EQ improved" because they didn't want to just cannibalize EQ players.  One might argue that using the EQ name wasn't the best move if they wanted to attract people who didn't like EQ1, but I think that's kind of minor.

By and large, the EQ2 team succeeded, though and have a healthy population.  The problem, as I said over at Wolfshead's blog, is one of context.  If WoW hadn't launched, I believe EQ2 would do a lot better and definitely would have a better perception.  EQ2 only "failed" because WoW came along and eclipsed the game by providing largely the same type of gameplay.  This isn't to say that wishing for WoW to fall into oblivion is a good (or even possible) strategy, but it provides context for why a game with a fairly sizable following is considered a "failure" or one that needs to revamp their newbie experience (again) to try to gain more subscribers.  As the guys over at Penny Arcade put it for &lt;i&gt;Warhammer&lt;/i&gt;, "I want to know what it's like to design a game that makes millions of dollars a month, &lt;i&gt;millions&lt;/i&gt;, and is still considered a failure."

I'm sure that unless the SOE management team has turn completely incompetent that EQ2 is doing fine.  Keep in mind that with "only" about 125k subscribers playing AC and a questionable partnership with Microsoft, Turbine was able to create two modern and expensive MMOs pretty much simultaneously.  That's pretty awesome for a game that came in a distant third back in the EQ1 days.  You don't need WoW's millions and millions to be successful, despite perception.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>WoW really didn&#8217;t create much in the realm of MMOs.  Let&#8217;s not forget that part of WoW&#8217;s success came from the 10+ year history of two highly successful gaming brands; consider how many people will pre-order a Blizzard game no matter what it is and despite how much the internet voices cry it will suck.  Blizzard&#8217;s success is built upon polish of existing types of gameplay, and in WoW&#8217;s case it was polish of the EQ (DIKU) style of gameplay and some logical extensions to that gameplay.  This duplication of existing gameplay is one reason why the elder game stuck with raiding for the most part even though it doesn&#8217;t seem to fit with the rest of the game, thus creating the casuals vs. raiders divide.</p>
<p>Gordon wrote:<br />
<i>SOE obviously believed their main audience was Everquest players&#8230;.</i></p>
<p>This is incorrect from what I&#8217;ve heard.  The target audience was people who tried EQ but didn&#8217;t like it.  EQ1 sold over a million boxes but retained less than half of that, so (in the old scale of MMOs) that was a sizable audience.  The developers didn&#8217;t just want to make &#8220;EQ improved&#8221; because they didn&#8217;t want to just cannibalize EQ players.  One might argue that using the EQ name wasn&#8217;t the best move if they wanted to attract people who didn&#8217;t like EQ1, but I think that&#8217;s kind of minor.</p>
<p>By and large, the EQ2 team succeeded, though and have a healthy population.  The problem, as I said over at Wolfshead&#8217;s blog, is one of context.  If WoW hadn&#8217;t launched, I believe EQ2 would do a lot better and definitely would have a better perception.  EQ2 only &#8220;failed&#8221; because WoW came along and eclipsed the game by providing largely the same type of gameplay.  This isn&#8217;t to say that wishing for WoW to fall into oblivion is a good (or even possible) strategy, but it provides context for why a game with a fairly sizable following is considered a &#8220;failure&#8221; or one that needs to revamp their newbie experience (again) to try to gain more subscribers.  As the guys over at Penny Arcade put it for <i>Warhammer</i>, &#8220;I want to know what it&#8217;s like to design a game that makes millions of dollars a month, <i>millions</i>, and is still considered a failure.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure that unless the SOE management team has turn completely incompetent that EQ2 is doing fine.  Keep in mind that with &#8220;only&#8221; about 125k subscribers playing AC and a questionable partnership with Microsoft, Turbine was able to create two modern and expensive MMOs pretty much simultaneously.  That&#8217;s pretty awesome for a game that came in a distant third back in the EQ1 days.  You don&#8217;t need WoW&#8217;s millions and millions to be successful, despite perception.</p>
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		<title>By: Gordon</title>
		<link>http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2009/07/21/blizzard-vs-mmorpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-8708</link>
		<dc:creator>Gordon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 21:06:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=1239#comment-8708</guid>
		<description>The exception to the rule is games like EVE Online that are hugely unfriendly in the first 15mins but pull people along through sheer force of will.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The exception to the rule is games like EVE Online that are hugely unfriendly in the first 15mins but pull people along through sheer force of will.</p>
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		<title>By: Mallika</title>
		<link>http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2009/07/21/blizzard-vs-mmorpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-8702</link>
		<dc:creator>Mallika</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 10:09:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=1239#comment-8702</guid>
		<description>RE: MUD snob

Heh, that makes two of us, Sharon. The only reason I hopped into the graphical MMO game area so late (Novemeber 2006) was due to the fact that I was still playing a MUD then. I was all, "Yeah, sure, why would I trade all this awesomeness, RP, interactivity, ability to change the world, being a part of the great community, and imaginative world for a stupid GRAPHICAL game where people LOL and have no idea how to write?"

Sadly, the 'lol' part still holds true, and sadly, people's writing abilities have gone down the can since then. I -still- take the time to spell out everything. When someone says 'thx' to me, I still say 'You're welcome' and NOT 'np' (UGH!).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RE: MUD snob</p>
<p>Heh, that makes two of us, Sharon. The only reason I hopped into the graphical MMO game area so late (Novemeber 2006) was due to the fact that I was still playing a MUD then. I was all, &#8220;Yeah, sure, why would I trade all this awesomeness, RP, interactivity, ability to change the world, being a part of the great community, and imaginative world for a stupid GRAPHICAL game where people LOL and have no idea how to write?&#8221;</p>
<p>Sadly, the &#8216;lol&#8217; part still holds true, and sadly, people&#8217;s writing abilities have gone down the can since then. I -still- take the time to spell out everything. When someone says &#8216;thx&#8217; to me, I still say &#8216;You&#8217;re welcome&#8217; and NOT &#8216;np&#8217; (UGH!).</p>
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		<title>By: Stropp</title>
		<link>http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2009/07/21/blizzard-vs-mmorpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-8700</link>
		<dc:creator>Stropp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 07:40:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=1239#comment-8700</guid>
		<description>*Some Games* need to sell themselves in the first 15 minutes. I'd hesitate to say all games need to sell themselves in the first 15 minutes. EQ and EQ2 fly far closer to the MUD/RPG sun than World of Warcraft does, and that's shown by how the first 15 minutes goes. 

Any/Many games of the RPG genre have the player spend a lot of time setting up their character. In those cases it's actually part of the appeal, but the player often doesn't actually experience any gameplay in the first 15 minutes, especially a new player who reads through all the choices.

And that's okay.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>*Some Games* need to sell themselves in the first 15 minutes. I&#8217;d hesitate to say all games need to sell themselves in the first 15 minutes. EQ and EQ2 fly far closer to the MUD/RPG sun than World of Warcraft does, and that&#8217;s shown by how the first 15 minutes goes. </p>
<p>Any/Many games of the RPG genre have the player spend a lot of time setting up their character. In those cases it&#8217;s actually part of the appeal, but the player often doesn&#8217;t actually experience any gameplay in the first 15 minutes, especially a new player who reads through all the choices.</p>
<p>And that&#8217;s okay.</p>
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		<title>By: Gordon</title>
		<link>http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2009/07/21/blizzard-vs-mmorpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-8690</link>
		<dc:creator>Gordon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 20:08:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=1239#comment-8690</guid>
		<description>Good point. WoW really broke the industry open. I don't think it's just successful because of it's timing though, it's successful because it's a good game. And, in fact, it's probably done the industry a lot of good on the whole because it's shown developers what they can achieve if they get it right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good point. WoW really broke the industry open. I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s just successful because of it&#8217;s timing though, it&#8217;s successful because it&#8217;s a good game. And, in fact, it&#8217;s probably done the industry a lot of good on the whole because it&#8217;s shown developers what they can achieve if they get it right.</p>
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		<title>By: Gordon</title>
		<link>http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2009/07/21/blizzard-vs-mmorpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-8689</link>
		<dc:creator>Gordon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 20:07:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=1239#comment-8689</guid>
		<description>Nothing to feel bad about! Games need to sell themselves in the first 15 mins, it's an important part of their appeal. EVE is an excellent game and it does well because people are determined to like it. If the first 15 mins of it was good as WoWs, well, then it would be an even bigger success.

Of course you need to have core gameplay to make a game good too, otherwise people leave in droves after the initial month.

WoW was clever and nailed both aspects.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nothing to feel bad about! Games need to sell themselves in the first 15 mins, it&#8217;s an important part of their appeal. EVE is an excellent game and it does well because people are determined to like it. If the first 15 mins of it was good as WoWs, well, then it would be an even bigger success.</p>
<p>Of course you need to have core gameplay to make a game good too, otherwise people leave in droves after the initial month.</p>
<p>WoW was clever and nailed both aspects.</p>
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		<title>By: Gordon</title>
		<link>http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2009/07/21/blizzard-vs-mmorpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-8688</link>
		<dc:creator>Gordon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 19:59:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=1239#comment-8688</guid>
		<description>Very true. It's also why Blizzard are so successful with WoW - they've managed to tap into a whole realm of gamers that wouldn't normally play a MMO.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very true. It&#8217;s also why Blizzard are so successful with WoW - they&#8217;ve managed to tap into a whole realm of gamers that wouldn&#8217;t normally play a MMO.</p>
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		<title>By: MrAnderson</title>
		<link>http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2009/07/21/blizzard-vs-mmorpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-8685</link>
		<dc:creator>MrAnderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 16:22:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=1239#comment-8685</guid>
		<description>A great post, and one that helps remind us all how big the "gaming pool" is, and how broad WoW's appeal is.

Also, I agree with the first part of Openedge1's comment:
"This same WoW player decides to go play another MMO and thinks they are an MMO expert and decry any other games mechanics because it is not WoW mechanics..

Though I don't blame Blizzard for player's decrying other games.  Blizzard crafted another game that became immensely popular; a game that happens to be in the MMO space.  

I blame first players for the shallow thought that if a new game is not exactly like the old one its bad.  Second I blame creators of new games that try to craft and market their game as similar to WoW.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A great post, and one that helps remind us all how big the &#8220;gaming pool&#8221; is, and how broad WoW&#8217;s appeal is.</p>
<p>Also, I agree with the first part of Openedge1&#8217;s comment:<br />
&#8220;This same WoW player decides to go play another MMO and thinks they are an MMO expert and decry any other games mechanics because it is not WoW mechanics..</p>
<p>Though I don&#8217;t blame Blizzard for player&#8217;s decrying other games.  Blizzard crafted another game that became immensely popular; a game that happens to be in the MMO space.  </p>
<p>I blame first players for the shallow thought that if a new game is not exactly like the old one its bad.  Second I blame creators of new games that try to craft and market their game as similar to WoW.</p>
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		<title>By: Tesh</title>
		<link>http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2009/07/21/blizzard-vs-mmorpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-8684</link>
		<dc:creator>Tesh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 15:57:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=1239#comment-8684</guid>
		<description>Puzzle Pirates was my first.  It definitely colored my expectations, for the better, I think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Puzzle Pirates was my first.  It definitely colored my expectations, for the better, I think.</p>
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