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	<title>Comments on: Freedom Without Direction &#8211; The Risk of Sandbox MMORPGs</title>
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	<link>http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2009/08/03/freedom-without-direction-the-risk-of-sandbox-mmorpgs/</link>
	<description>A blog about MMORPGs like World of Warcraft (WoW) and Everquest 2 (EQ2)</description>
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		<title>By: SomeGuyson</title>
		<link>http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2009/08/03/freedom-without-direction-the-risk-of-sandbox-mmorpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-37016</link>
		<dc:creator>SomeGuyson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Mar 2011 07:37:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=1383#comment-37016</guid>
		<description>I think we have more freedom once you consider that we don’t have to worry about the basic necessities of survival-

Due to this statement, I find this conversation moot. The basic necessities of survival are much harder to obtain from my point of view. If I&#039;m broke, (witch most of the time I am), I cannot go out into the wilderness and hunt/gather, as that is illegal. Yet, I make too much money (about $15,000/yr), witch is too much as a single person for food stamps. So, I am very much so not free as I work 10-14 hours a day, 5 days a week, and feel trapped in rent and figuring out how to feed myself. From there, I invest my time in games to forget the hell of existence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think we have more freedom once you consider that we don’t have to worry about the basic necessities of survival-</p>
<p>Due to this statement, I find this conversation moot. The basic necessities of survival are much harder to obtain from my point of view. If I&#8217;m broke, (witch most of the time I am), I cannot go out into the wilderness and hunt/gather, as that is illegal. Yet, I make too much money (about $15,000/yr), witch is too much as a single person for food stamps. So, I am very much so not free as I work 10-14 hours a day, 5 days a week, and feel trapped in rent and figuring out how to feed myself. From there, I invest my time in games to forget the hell of existence.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2009/08/03/freedom-without-direction-the-risk-of-sandbox-mmorpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-14317</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 04:46:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=1383#comment-14317</guid>
		<description>I would like to say that I am an Eve online Player. So i will refer to everything from an Eve online point of view. In fact its the only MMORPG that i have played for a long period of time. I used to play wow, but I stopped because I felt that the game was simply too linear and there was a rush to go from 1 to max level then do &quot;endgame&quot;. People kept telling me to just grind to lvl 70 (I stopped before WOTLK came out). I felt heart broken by that because i wanted to enjoy the actual World of Warcraft and role play and discover storyline. Blizzard put so much effort in making wow a well polished game yet people just care about itemizaition and instant gratification. I switched to Eve because i realized that I can create my own story and with real people and real success was something worth cherishing. I am not a uber hardcore gamer. I go to college, I study, i have a real life like most people. But i also like gaming. 

First off I would like to say that Eve Online is originally NOT intended to appeal to everyone. I think most Sandbox games are like this too. I think however that giving &quot;directions&quot; really does limit the freedom of the game unintentionally. I really hate achievement systems because then everyone will then grind their achievements to make themselves feel that they actually accomplished something. The problem with a majority of gamers now a days is that they want to feel the sense of accomplishment but its something that requires little creativity. People dont enjoy the game for the sake of playing or creativity. They just want their epic items and the stuff that makes them look cool. 
THe otherside of Sandbox that most people fail to do is socialize with people in game. You can grind to lvl 80 in wow by yourself. But you will not like Eve without joining a corporation or finding a good wingman. The achievements in game are set by players and as a new player if you join a corporation you can discover what those are based on who you play with. I joined a mining corporation and many people say that mining is the most boring job in eve (it is). But even with a group of players doing a mining op that took coordination, then selling the minerals on regional markets felt exciting. Then we increased our ambitions and did pvping and joined an alliance. These people became friends, and i communicated with them on a regular basis
On a side note, i do wish that eve was more flashy and twitchy like wow. That way i think more people can join. Automated combat is ok, and the tactics in pvping are great. THe skill system thats automated is a blessing because i dont have to grind. I think that people get turned off by all this stuff is because they want accomplishments. Rather people should just enjoy the game as much as possible and play it for the sake of fun rather than accompishments. I do think that sandbox games should have better tutorials but guiding people to the endgame takes away from the sandbox game. People should play the game for fun, and who cares if you arent the leader of a super alliance or can fly every ship in the game? Alot of people arent. Eve can be simple and complex at the same time, but with a group of good friends it really doesnt matter that much where you are in the Universe because you create your own space.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would like to say that I am an Eve online Player. So i will refer to everything from an Eve online point of view. In fact its the only MMORPG that i have played for a long period of time. I used to play wow, but I stopped because I felt that the game was simply too linear and there was a rush to go from 1 to max level then do &#8220;endgame&#8221;. People kept telling me to just grind to lvl 70 (I stopped before WOTLK came out). I felt heart broken by that because i wanted to enjoy the actual World of Warcraft and role play and discover storyline. Blizzard put so much effort in making wow a well polished game yet people just care about itemizaition and instant gratification. I switched to Eve because i realized that I can create my own story and with real people and real success was something worth cherishing. I am not a uber hardcore gamer. I go to college, I study, i have a real life like most people. But i also like gaming. </p>
<p>First off I would like to say that Eve Online is originally NOT intended to appeal to everyone. I think most Sandbox games are like this too. I think however that giving &#8220;directions&#8221; really does limit the freedom of the game unintentionally. I really hate achievement systems because then everyone will then grind their achievements to make themselves feel that they actually accomplished something. The problem with a majority of gamers now a days is that they want to feel the sense of accomplishment but its something that requires little creativity. People dont enjoy the game for the sake of playing or creativity. They just want their epic items and the stuff that makes them look cool.<br />
THe otherside of Sandbox that most people fail to do is socialize with people in game. You can grind to lvl 80 in wow by yourself. But you will not like Eve without joining a corporation or finding a good wingman. The achievements in game are set by players and as a new player if you join a corporation you can discover what those are based on who you play with. I joined a mining corporation and many people say that mining is the most boring job in eve (it is). But even with a group of players doing a mining op that took coordination, then selling the minerals on regional markets felt exciting. Then we increased our ambitions and did pvping and joined an alliance. These people became friends, and i communicated with them on a regular basis<br />
On a side note, i do wish that eve was more flashy and twitchy like wow. That way i think more people can join. Automated combat is ok, and the tactics in pvping are great. THe skill system thats automated is a blessing because i dont have to grind. I think that people get turned off by all this stuff is because they want accomplishments. Rather people should just enjoy the game as much as possible and play it for the sake of fun rather than accompishments. I do think that sandbox games should have better tutorials but guiding people to the endgame takes away from the sandbox game. People should play the game for fun, and who cares if you arent the leader of a super alliance or can fly every ship in the game? Alot of people arent. Eve can be simple and complex at the same time, but with a group of good friends it really doesnt matter that much where you are in the Universe because you create your own space.</p>
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		<title>By: ehhh</title>
		<link>http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2009/08/03/freedom-without-direction-the-risk-of-sandbox-mmorpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-10285</link>
		<dc:creator>ehhh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 20:55:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=1383#comment-10285</guid>
		<description>It depends on the person your talking about, some people have to be told what to do, and other people despise it.  There are self learners and people that learn better through lessons.  Some people like to think while others do not...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It depends on the person your talking about, some people have to be told what to do, and other people despise it.  There are self learners and people that learn better through lessons.  Some people like to think while others do not&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: 4th Edition Player&#8217;s Handbook Objections Pt. 1- Accessory Review</title>
		<link>http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2009/08/03/freedom-without-direction-the-risk-of-sandbox-mmorpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-9279</link>
		<dc:creator>4th Edition Player&#8217;s Handbook Objections Pt. 1- Accessory Review</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 22:49:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=1383#comment-9279</guid>
		<description>[...] Freedom Without Direction &#8211; The Risk of Sandbox MMORPGs &#8211; We Fly &#8230; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Freedom Without Direction &#8211; The Risk of Sandbox MMORPGs &#8211; We Fly &#8230; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Vacation Requiem - We Fly Spitfires - MMORPG Blog</title>
		<link>http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2009/08/03/freedom-without-direction-the-risk-of-sandbox-mmorpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-9080</link>
		<dc:creator>Vacation Requiem - We Fly Spitfires - MMORPG Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Aug 2009 18:07:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=1383#comment-9080</guid>
		<description>[...] discussed the pros and cons of freedom without direction and it&#8217;s place in sandbox [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] discussed the pros and cons of freedom without direction and it&#8217;s place in sandbox [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Gordon</title>
		<link>http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2009/08/03/freedom-without-direction-the-risk-of-sandbox-mmorpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-8947</link>
		<dc:creator>Gordon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Aug 2009 08:57:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=1383#comment-8947</guid>
		<description>Very interesting perspective on the sandbox approach. I think it&#039;s definitely true that many gamers just want short term rewards and the class carrot and stick routine. Most players probably play WoW because it&#039;s quick, easy and fun and, most importantly, a form of escapism from their real worlds. To make a MMO too vast makes every choice difficult and rewards the short term reward. That&#039;s were the whole direction vs freedom argument fits in: ultimately we need a direction before we can be free to achieve it. Having all of the power in the (virtual) world is useless if there&#039;s nothing to strive for.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting perspective on the sandbox approach. I think it&#8217;s definitely true that many gamers just want short term rewards and the class carrot and stick routine. Most players probably play WoW because it&#8217;s quick, easy and fun and, most importantly, a form of escapism from their real worlds. To make a MMO too vast makes every choice difficult and rewards the short term reward. That&#8217;s were the whole direction vs freedom argument fits in: ultimately we need a direction before we can be free to achieve it. Having all of the power in the (virtual) world is useless if there&#8217;s nothing to strive for.</p>
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		<title>By: Gordon</title>
		<link>http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2009/08/03/freedom-without-direction-the-risk-of-sandbox-mmorpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-8946</link>
		<dc:creator>Gordon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Aug 2009 08:51:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=1383#comment-8946</guid>
		<description>Good point. I&#039;d wonder though how many people actually want to make up their own minds though. If anything, games like WoW proved that gamers like simple, pre-determined paths to follow. They don&#039;t necessary like to have to think about what to do. Maybe a gentle nudge is the way to go :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good point. I&#8217;d wonder though how many people actually want to make up their own minds though. If anything, games like WoW proved that gamers like simple, pre-determined paths to follow. They don&#8217;t necessary like to have to think about what to do. Maybe a gentle nudge is the way to go <img src='http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/wp-content/plugins/tango-smilies/tango/face-smile.png' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Drekkin</title>
		<link>http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2009/08/03/freedom-without-direction-the-risk-of-sandbox-mmorpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-8943</link>
		<dc:creator>Drekkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Aug 2009 05:56:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=1383#comment-8943</guid>
		<description>I agree with the premise that freedom needs some direction, but the qualifier of balance for me is choice.

Second Life left me standing in leather apparel in a literal virtual sandbox wondering what the hell to do next.  There are spaces within that game to go and play in the cyber-dirt, and almost no limitations on what you could create from nothing, but I didn&#039;t like the game because of that exact factor.  Real life&#039;s more limited choices seemed so much more attractive in comparison to that particular MMO&#039;s freedoms as I actually have things to achieve in the everyday that don&#039;t always feel like I&#039;m just killing time, and there are actually tactile rewards.  It was a depressing experience because it did tell me that as much as I nag on about the &quot;sandbox&quot;, I apparently still want my carrot + stick.

Conversely, other MMOs may also involve nothing more than the satisfaction of a job well done, but the choices are far more linear and limited in scope.  They feel hollow because there&#039;s no personal element to toeing a line.

SWG&#039;s Legacy storyline, for example, is a one size fits all pathway of advancement.  In comparison with EQ2&#039;s many and varied quest choices - while also catchall&#039;s - the pathway of a single storyline comes up short.  EQ2 provides a choice - a quest might provide the XP required to advance, but you don&#039;t necessarily have to do it.  There&#039;s other adventures out there to choose from.

As others have said, &quot;direction&quot; implies a limitation of choices.  You&#039;d rather directionS.  Forks in the road and options that remind you you&#039;re actually developing you&#039;re own character rather than running through the par for the course.

In the end, you want a number of paths to follow so you&#039;ve got that essential element of choice.  The more the better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with the premise that freedom needs some direction, but the qualifier of balance for me is choice.</p>
<p>Second Life left me standing in leather apparel in a literal virtual sandbox wondering what the hell to do next.  There are spaces within that game to go and play in the cyber-dirt, and almost no limitations on what you could create from nothing, but I didn&#8217;t like the game because of that exact factor.  Real life&#8217;s more limited choices seemed so much more attractive in comparison to that particular MMO&#8217;s freedoms as I actually have things to achieve in the everyday that don&#8217;t always feel like I&#8217;m just killing time, and there are actually tactile rewards.  It was a depressing experience because it did tell me that as much as I nag on about the &#8220;sandbox&#8221;, I apparently still want my carrot + stick.</p>
<p>Conversely, other MMOs may also involve nothing more than the satisfaction of a job well done, but the choices are far more linear and limited in scope.  They feel hollow because there&#8217;s no personal element to toeing a line.</p>
<p>SWG&#8217;s Legacy storyline, for example, is a one size fits all pathway of advancement.  In comparison with EQ2&#8217;s many and varied quest choices &#8211; while also catchall&#8217;s &#8211; the pathway of a single storyline comes up short.  EQ2 provides a choice &#8211; a quest might provide the XP required to advance, but you don&#8217;t necessarily have to do it.  There&#8217;s other adventures out there to choose from.</p>
<p>As others have said, &#8220;direction&#8221; implies a limitation of choices.  You&#8217;d rather directionS.  Forks in the road and options that remind you you&#8217;re actually developing you&#8217;re own character rather than running through the par for the course.</p>
<p>In the end, you want a number of paths to follow so you&#8217;ve got that essential element of choice.  The more the better.</p>
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		<title>By: Tesh</title>
		<link>http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2009/08/03/freedom-without-direction-the-risk-of-sandbox-mmorpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-8939</link>
		<dc:creator>Tesh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Aug 2009 02:01:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=1383#comment-8939</guid>
		<description>Actually, you can skip a lot of the &quot;how to&quot; if you have sufficient &quot;verbs&quot; for players to experiment with, tools that make sense in the game world and allow the player to accomplish things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, you can skip a lot of the &#8220;how to&#8221; if you have sufficient &#8220;verbs&#8221; for players to experiment with, tools that make sense in the game world and allow the player to accomplish things.</p>
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		<title>By: Tesh</title>
		<link>http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2009/08/03/freedom-without-direction-the-risk-of-sandbox-mmorpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-8938</link>
		<dc:creator>Tesh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Aug 2009 02:00:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=1383#comment-8938</guid>
		<description>Call it &quot;education about potential goals&quot; in game design terms, then.  Tell people what they can do, and how to do it, and let them choose which of several options to pursue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Call it &#8220;education about potential goals&#8221; in game design terms, then.  Tell people what they can do, and how to do it, and let them choose which of several options to pursue.</p>
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