Comments on: Why Is Raiding The End Game Of MMORPGs? http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2009/10/07/why-is-raiding-the-end-game-of-mmorpgs/ A blog about MMORPGs like World of Warcraft (WoW) and Everquest 2 (EQ2) Tue, 16 Mar 2010 16:40:23 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7.1 hourly 1 By: Gordon http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2009/10/07/why-is-raiding-the-end-game-of-mmorpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-10993 Gordon Tue, 20 Oct 2009 20:36:00 +0000 http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=1856#comment-10993 I've got nothing against raiding or group play - in fact, I think group gameplay is the backbone of MMORPGs - it's just that I don't it very odd that you never do any sort of raiding until you hit the level cap. It just seems very strange that you would play a game one way for weeks, if not months, and then eventually switch to another form of gameplay completely! I’ve got nothing against raiding or group play - in fact, I think group gameplay is the backbone of MMORPGs - it’s just that I don’t it very odd that you never do any sort of raiding until you hit the level cap. It just seems very strange that you would play a game one way for weeks, if not months, and then eventually switch to another form of gameplay completely!

]]> By: Balihai http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2009/10/07/why-is-raiding-the-end-game-of-mmorpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-10957 Balihai Mon, 19 Oct 2009 23:39:05 +0000 http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=1856#comment-10957 As I am reading over this article and response a couple of thoughts / questions come to mind? --Why -O- Why do you wan to play an MMO solo? There are a million console and PC based RPGs that has tons of solo content. Why pay 15 bucks a month (+/-) to play by yourself. Personally, I believe to much solo content kills a community. If people are not nudged into coming together for a common goal then you really start to kill the social aspect of MMOs, which is why we all play. If these means that I can't do something right here right now than so be it. E.G. When trying to get my EPIC weapon I had to plan and organize to get a group going, took me a couple of days to finally get a group together to get the last step done, frustrating yes, but well worth it in the end. --Not to be hostile, but just because WoW doesn't do it doesn't mean it isn't done. In EQ2 you can find epic mobs and zones in alot of the lower lvl tiers. The first Raid you can do (x2 12 man) is at lvl 20 and completing that one gives you access to a x4 instance of that raid. Their are also a number of epic x2 20-25 ish level mobs. Given, there are not enough of the and alot of the players now days don't want to go pull a mob or run a zone just to have fun. It's always about gear / spells / loot etc. I am all for those things, but in the end I just want to have a good time with my wife and friends while we play. All of the other stuff will come in time. Having said that, I do agree with a number of points mentioned above. Playing a toon for x number of levels a certain way and then introducing a completely different way to play the game is sub-par at best. However, I think the answer is more raids at lower lvls. Have one to two raid zones (or more) in every tier, some of these could be the same zones as the higher lvl content just scaled down. I also think more open world contested epic mobs is the way to go. Since it would be alot easier and more fun to get 12 to 24 people of X lvl to go take on a baby dragon or whatever that's just sitting there. Coupled with real world PVP and you have a formula for allot of good times. This would also benefit the casual players as well. A world contested mob means you do not have a 1 -3 hour zone to go through blow through before challenging them. Instead, form group, talk start attempt a pull and if you wipe, tweak strat pull again- rinse repeat until success. This would give us the ability to see our toons did in a raid and start to train / teach us for the higher lvl raid zone. My .02 As I am reading over this article and response a couple of thoughts / questions come to mind?
–Why -O- Why do you wan to play an MMO solo? There are a million console and PC based RPGs that has tons of solo content. Why pay 15 bucks a month (+/-) to play by yourself. Personally, I believe to much solo content kills a community. If people are not nudged into coming together for a common goal then you really start to kill the social aspect of MMOs, which is why we all play. If these means that I can’t do something right here right now than so be it. E.G. When trying to get my EPIC weapon I had to plan and organize to get a group going, took me a couple of days to finally get a group together to get the last step done, frustrating yes, but well worth it in the end.

–Not to be hostile, but just because WoW doesn’t do it doesn’t mean it isn’t done. In EQ2 you can find epic mobs and zones in alot of the lower lvl tiers. The first Raid you can do (x2 12 man) is at lvl 20 and completing that one gives you access to a x4 instance of that raid. Their are also a number of epic x2 20-25 ish level mobs. Given, there are not enough of the and alot of the players now days don’t want to go pull a mob or run a zone just to have fun. It’s always about gear / spells / loot etc. I am all for those things, but in the end I just want to have a good time with my wife and friends while we play. All of the other stuff will come in time.

Having said that, I do agree with a number of points mentioned above. Playing a toon for x number of levels a certain way and then introducing a completely different way to play the game is sub-par at best. However, I think the answer is more raids at lower lvls. Have one to two raid zones (or more) in every tier, some of these could be the same zones as the higher lvl content just scaled down. I also think more open world contested epic mobs is the way to go. Since it would be alot easier and more fun to get 12 to 24 people of X lvl to go take on a baby dragon or whatever that’s just sitting there. Coupled with real world PVP and you have a formula for allot of good times. This would also benefit the casual players as well. A world contested mob means you do not have a 1 -3 hour zone to go through blow through before challenging them. Instead, form group, talk start attempt a pull and if you wipe, tweak strat pull again- rinse repeat until success. This would give us the ability to see our toons did in a raid and start to train / teach us for the higher lvl raid zone.

My .02

]]> By: Gordon http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2009/10/07/why-is-raiding-the-end-game-of-mmorpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-10703 Gordon Tue, 13 Oct 2009 21:04:03 +0000 http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=1856#comment-10703 Indeed. I think the original models need a good reworking, nothing major, just subtle changes to make the more appealing and less gangly. Indeed. I think the original models need a good reworking, nothing major, just subtle changes to make the more appealing and less gangly.

]]> By: Jim http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2009/10/07/why-is-raiding-the-end-game-of-mmorpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-10674 Jim Mon, 12 Oct 2009 22:45:14 +0000 http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=1856#comment-10674 I am also excited about Cataclysm. I just hope they update the graphics at the same time. I know they are not every thing but the player models are looking pretty dated. I am also excited about Cataclysm. I just hope they update the graphics at the same time. I know they are not every thing but the player models are looking pretty dated.

]]> By: Gordon http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2009/10/07/why-is-raiding-the-end-game-of-mmorpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-10596 Gordon Sun, 11 Oct 2009 10:37:28 +0000 http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=1856#comment-10596 Nice link, thanks! I'm not surprised it's been blogged about it before - it's such a big gap the gameplay isn't it? Just goes to show how the MMORPG genre has never really been thought through from the start to the end and just has just kinda 'evolved' that way, with new development copying the old and never questioning why. Nice link, thanks! I’m not surprised it’s been blogged about it before - it’s such a big gap the gameplay isn’t it? Just goes to show how the MMORPG genre has never really been thought through from the start to the end and just has just kinda ‘evolved’ that way, with new development copying the old and never questioning why.

]]> By: Wolfshead http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2009/10/07/why-is-raiding-the-end-game-of-mmorpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-10590 Wolfshead Sun, 11 Oct 2009 06:32:27 +0000 http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=1856#comment-10590 I talked about this very subject many times on my blog in the past few years. Tobold has also asked this question as well. Here's a quote from one of my previous articles: http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/?p=108 <blockquote>The fundamental flaw with WoW right now is that the unharmonious transition from solo gameplay to group/raiding gameplay at the level cap. As Tobold asked: who is supposed to train them? It is Blizzard that should be training them within the game. Getting them prepared for the “real” WoW that Blizzard seems to proudly promote should be their top priority. Just as no army in their right mind would send out soldiers to war without giving them basic training at a boot camp, no game designer should ever fail to prepare their players for the challenges ahead. Yet, this is exactly what the designers at Blizzard have allowed to happen within WoW.</blockquote> Quite honestly it's just poor game design to suddenly change the game into something completely different and expect players to transition to it without any effort to train or tutorialize players. A game should have a sense of harmony throughout. This is why raiding should happen much earlier in WoW if it is truly considered to be the "real game" by Blizzard. I talked about this very subject many times on my blog in the past few years. Tobold has also asked this question as well. Here’s a quote from one of my previous articles:

http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/?p=108

The fundamental flaw with WoW right now is that the unharmonious transition from solo gameplay to group/raiding gameplay at the level cap. As Tobold asked: who is supposed to train them? It is Blizzard that should be training them within the game. Getting them prepared for the “real” WoW that Blizzard seems to proudly promote should be their top priority. Just as no army in their right mind would send out soldiers to war without giving them basic training at a boot camp, no game designer should ever fail to prepare their players for the challenges ahead. Yet, this is exactly what the designers at Blizzard have allowed to happen within WoW.

Quite honestly it’s just poor game design to suddenly change the game into something completely different and expect players to transition to it without any effort to train or tutorialize players. A game should have a sense of harmony throughout. This is why raiding should happen much earlier in WoW if it is truly considered to be the “real game” by Blizzard.

]]> By: Gordon http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2009/10/07/why-is-raiding-the-end-game-of-mmorpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-10534 Gordon Fri, 09 Oct 2009 22:14:16 +0000 http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=1856#comment-10534 I was more commenting on the strangeness of the fact that you spend most of the game doing things which are totally unrelated to the raiding playstyle. I mean doesn't it seem odd that people solo all the way from 1 to 80 and then jump into 25 man raids? I've got nothing against either soloing or raiding, I just find the whole thing kinda baffling :) If raiding is the main point of these games, why not just do away with the low levels entirely? It almost like 2 separate games. I was more commenting on the strangeness of the fact that you spend most of the game doing things which are totally unrelated to the raiding playstyle. I mean doesn’t it seem odd that people solo all the way from 1 to 80 and then jump into 25 man raids? I’ve got nothing against either soloing or raiding, I just find the whole thing kinda baffling :) If raiding is the main point of these games, why not just do away with the low levels entirely? It almost like 2 separate games.

]]> By: Gordon http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2009/10/07/why-is-raiding-the-end-game-of-mmorpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-10533 Gordon Fri, 09 Oct 2009 22:13:06 +0000 http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=1856#comment-10533 Very true. Very true.

]]> By: Gordon http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2009/10/07/why-is-raiding-the-end-game-of-mmorpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-10528 Gordon Fri, 09 Oct 2009 21:32:13 +0000 http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=1856#comment-10528 Finger wigglers will always lack compared to men with big swords :) Wow, that sounded really camp... Finger wigglers will always lack compared to men with big swords :) Wow, that sounded really camp…

]]> By: Lycanthro http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2009/10/07/why-is-raiding-the-end-game-of-mmorpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-10525 Lycanthro Fri, 09 Oct 2009 20:07:53 +0000 http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=1856#comment-10525 I'm assuming you're talking about WoW and in that case there is tons of solo progression. Sons of Hodir? Argent Tournament? Isle of Quel'danas? To all the "hardcore raiders" and such these are just speedbumps but if you're only soloing that's the game. During Burning Crusade I soloed or pugged 5mans 95% of the time. Occasionally I would get into a pug raid and the guild I was in would do Kara sometimes. The whole game to me was Isle of Quel'danas, then port scroll to Shattrath and gathering the quests there and flying off to Skettis doing those, taking the taxi to Ogri'la doing that, then finishing the SSO daily in Blade's Edge and moving to the one in Netherstorm and down to the ones in Hellfire and then back to Shattrath to turn it all in. I had a blast! Now it really is better than ever, as far as I'm concerned pug grouping and battlegrounds are also solo content because they require no setup. Pugs in wow if you're on a server with people playing are constantly forming and going and with the 3.3 changes it will be even better. There's plenty of ways to advance your character. Sure you're not going to have ilvl 258 heroic gear but that's not what you want anyway! Hell with Achievements there's so much more to do beyond that, all the reputations and mounts and pets and loremaster achievements.... You can progress your character in tons of ways. Really, if this is your complaint then World of Warcraft is the wrong game to complain about. You're just looking at it through the wrong pair of glasses. I’m assuming you’re talking about WoW and in that case there is tons of solo progression. Sons of Hodir? Argent Tournament? Isle of Quel’danas? To all the “hardcore raiders” and such these are just speedbumps but if you’re only soloing that’s the game. During Burning Crusade I soloed or pugged 5mans 95% of the time. Occasionally I would get into a pug raid and the guild I was in would do Kara sometimes. The whole game to me was Isle of Quel’danas, then port scroll to Shattrath and gathering the quests there and flying off to Skettis doing those, taking the taxi to Ogri’la doing that, then finishing the SSO daily in Blade’s Edge and moving to the one in Netherstorm and down to the ones in Hellfire and then back to Shattrath to turn it all in.

I had a blast! Now it really is better than ever, as far as I’m concerned pug grouping and battlegrounds are also solo content because they require no setup. Pugs in wow if you’re on a server with people playing are constantly forming and going and with the 3.3 changes it will be even better. There’s plenty of ways to advance your character. Sure you’re not going to have ilvl 258 heroic gear but that’s not what you want anyway! Hell with Achievements there’s so much more to do beyond that, all the reputations and mounts and pets and loremaster achievements…. You can progress your character in tons of ways.

Really, if this is your complaint then World of Warcraft is the wrong game to complain about. You’re just looking at it through the wrong pair of glasses.

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