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	<title>Comments on: Grouping Today: Accessible Or Lazy?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2009/11/12/grouping-today-accessible-or-lazy/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2009/11/12/grouping-today-accessible-or-lazy/</link>
	<description>A blog about MMORPGs like World of Warcraft (WoW) and Everquest 2 (EQ2)</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 17:51:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2009/11/12/grouping-today-accessible-or-lazy/comment-page-1/#comment-12131</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 18:10:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=2155#comment-12131</guid>
		<description>The average MMO today only lets you make persistent changes to the game world in one, very limited domain -- your character(s).  Therefore, it's inevitable that group play becomes viewed as just a means to individualistic ends.  

In WoW, for example, a dungeon group sees collective progress in defeating the monsters in the instanced dungeon.  However, once all that dungeon's monsters are defeated and the group disbands, no evidence of their group effort remains in the game world.  Only the treasure, experience points and achievements collected by individual characters persists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The average MMO today only lets you make persistent changes to the game world in one, very limited domain &#8212; your character(s).  Therefore, it&#8217;s inevitable that group play becomes viewed as just a means to individualistic ends.  </p>
<p>In WoW, for example, a dungeon group sees collective progress in defeating the monsters in the instanced dungeon.  However, once all that dungeon&#8217;s monsters are defeated and the group disbands, no evidence of their group effort remains in the game world.  Only the treasure, experience points and achievements collected by individual characters persists.</p>
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		<title>By: nugget</title>
		<link>http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2009/11/12/grouping-today-accessible-or-lazy/comment-page-1/#comment-12088</link>
		<dc:creator>nugget</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 04:19:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=2155#comment-12088</guid>
		<description>Hmm.. for me it's never been about forgoing 'the pain of spending an hour forming a group'.

...it's always pretty much been 'the pain of being in a group of strangers whose competence you cannot rely on, and additionally, whom, if you are leading, you must then babysit and herd like hamsters'.

&gt;.&gt;

...this is why in GW, I need to be specifically in my 'social mood' before I will happily look for a group. Because in my strange social-nugget mode, it seems to immunise me to some degree against frustration from PUG-hamsteritis. &gt;.&gt;

(And  no, I don't always lead in groups of humans. In WoW, I basically led when I was the tank, because the role seemed to default to the tank, and things would run smoother with a clued tank who could lead.)

...and in Jade Dynasty that I'm playing currently? Short of one-off kills for quest mobs (so they die faster and everyone gets credit), I avoid grouping like the plague. ^_^ I hear there are some higher 'ROI' quests in a few levels from where I am, so we'll see. Incidentally, JD PvE is (so far) nothing but huge numbers of beastly fidos, so I don't forsee those groups I do go for in PvE to be stressful. I hope. Surely killing beastly fidos can't be hard? O.o</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm.. for me it&#8217;s never been about forgoing &#8216;the pain of spending an hour forming a group&#8217;.</p>
<p>&#8230;it&#8217;s always pretty much been &#8216;the pain of being in a group of strangers whose competence you cannot rely on, and additionally, whom, if you are leading, you must then babysit and herd like hamsters&#8217;.</p>
<p>&gt;.&gt;</p>
<p>&#8230;this is why in GW, I need to be specifically in my &#8217;social mood&#8217; before I will happily look for a group. Because in my strange social-nugget mode, it seems to immunise me to some degree against frustration from PUG-hamsteritis. &gt;.&gt;</p>
<p>(And  no, I don&#8217;t always lead in groups of humans. In WoW, I basically led when I was the tank, because the role seemed to default to the tank, and things would run smoother with a clued tank who could lead.)</p>
<p>&#8230;and in Jade Dynasty that I&#8217;m playing currently? Short of one-off kills for quest mobs (so they die faster and everyone gets credit), I avoid grouping like the plague. ^_^ I hear there are some higher &#8216;ROI&#8217; quests in a few levels from where I am, so we&#8217;ll see. Incidentally, JD PvE is (so far) nothing but huge numbers of beastly fidos, so I don&#8217;t forsee those groups I do go for in PvE to be stressful. I hope. Surely killing beastly fidos can&#8217;t be hard? O.o</p>
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		<title>By: Gordon</title>
		<link>http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2009/11/12/grouping-today-accessible-or-lazy/comment-page-1/#comment-12034</link>
		<dc:creator>Gordon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:19:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=2155#comment-12034</guid>
		<description>Absolutely. Not sure why Blizzard wanted to reward soloing questing so much...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Absolutely. Not sure why Blizzard wanted to reward soloing questing so much&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Gordon</title>
		<link>http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2009/11/12/grouping-today-accessible-or-lazy/comment-page-1/#comment-12033</link>
		<dc:creator>Gordon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:17:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=2155#comment-12033</guid>
		<description>Pretty much summed it up there in a nutshell. Of course, by removing things like travel time and class structures etc, then you risk losing the immersion of the world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pretty much summed it up there in a nutshell. Of course, by removing things like travel time and class structures etc, then you risk losing the immersion of the world.</p>
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		<title>By: Tesh</title>
		<link>http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2009/11/12/grouping-today-accessible-or-lazy/comment-page-1/#comment-12031</link>
		<dc:creator>Tesh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 17:24:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=2155#comment-12031</guid>
		<description>Mmm... Puzzle Pirates.  Of course, the grouping rewards scale better there, too.  I play solo a lot, but it's unmistakably more profitable to play with other people.  (Well, so long as they aren't complete idiots, anyway.)  Easy-to-form groups (of various sizes) and better rewards for grouping (while still making soloing viable) is Good Design in my book.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mmm&#8230; Puzzle Pirates.  Of course, the grouping rewards scale better there, too.  I play solo a lot, but it&#8217;s unmistakably more profitable to play with other people.  (Well, so long as they aren&#8217;t complete idiots, anyway.)  Easy-to-form groups (of various sizes) and better rewards for grouping (while still making soloing viable) is Good Design in my book.</p>
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		<title>By: wml</title>
		<link>http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2009/11/12/grouping-today-accessible-or-lazy/comment-page-1/#comment-12015</link>
		<dc:creator>wml</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 21:24:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=2155#comment-12015</guid>
		<description>well in the case of City of Heroes, at least when I played it regularly, you most specifically did NOT need multiple hours to find a group and play; you really only needed about 5-10 minutes to find a group. (I do not know if that is still the case). A game that makes it even easier to group is puzzle pirates. 

As others have mentioned, a big chunk of the problem is in game design. Levels. Long travel times. Holy trinity class structures. Advancement by quest. etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>well in the case of City of Heroes, at least when I played it regularly, you most specifically did NOT need multiple hours to find a group and play; you really only needed about 5-10 minutes to find a group. (I do not know if that is still the case). A game that makes it even easier to group is puzzle pirates. </p>
<p>As others have mentioned, a big chunk of the problem is in game design. Levels. Long travel times. Holy trinity class structures. Advancement by quest. etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Gordon</title>
		<link>http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2009/11/12/grouping-today-accessible-or-lazy/comment-page-1/#comment-11986</link>
		<dc:creator>Gordon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 20:23:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=2155#comment-11986</guid>
		<description>Which is why I think I was very fortunate to be able to spend the time required that games like EQ required. If I was as busy 5 or 10 years ago as I am now, I would never have been able to play the game or experience it properly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Which is why I think I was very fortunate to be able to spend the time required that games like EQ required. If I was as busy 5 or 10 years ago as I am now, I would never have been able to play the game or experience it properly.</p>
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		<title>By: Gordon</title>
		<link>http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2009/11/12/grouping-today-accessible-or-lazy/comment-page-1/#comment-11985</link>
		<dc:creator>Gordon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 20:21:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=2155#comment-11985</guid>
		<description>It's tough one as I want a game to be accesible but I don't want to be lazy. Unfortunately right now in many MMORPGs, the effort required to group and socialise is too great and the rewards too little. 

Interestingly though, no one ever complains about raids being too hard to assemble because the rewards are so great :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s tough one as I want a game to be accesible but I don&#8217;t want to be lazy. Unfortunately right now in many MMORPGs, the effort required to group and socialise is too great and the rewards too little. </p>
<p>Interestingly though, no one ever complains about raids being too hard to assemble because the rewards are so great <img src='http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/wp-content/plugins/tango-smilies/tango/face-smile.png' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' width='16' height='16' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Gordon</title>
		<link>http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2009/11/12/grouping-today-accessible-or-lazy/comment-page-1/#comment-11984</link>
		<dc:creator>Gordon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 20:19:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=2155#comment-11984</guid>
		<description>Interesting take on it. I think you're dead on that a game lik WoW attracts different players from a game like EQ but I believe that ultimately it's designed to make players interact in a different way. Players will always go for the more effect route from A to Z and the designer has the means to influence this. For example, when Blizzard increased the exp rewards on quests from 20-60, they basically killed grouping as the rewards from it didn't outweigh the effort.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting take on it. I think you&#8217;re dead on that a game lik WoW attracts different players from a game like EQ but I believe that ultimately it&#8217;s designed to make players interact in a different way. Players will always go for the more effect route from A to Z and the designer has the means to influence this. For example, when Blizzard increased the exp rewards on quests from 20-60, they basically killed grouping as the rewards from it didn&#8217;t outweigh the effort.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeromai</title>
		<link>http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2009/11/12/grouping-today-accessible-or-lazy/comment-page-1/#comment-11980</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeromai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 13:40:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=2155#comment-11980</guid>
		<description>What tales from the good old days often miss is the fact that forced grouping game designs  marginalize the soloists who can't or won't group as a primary playstyle preference. Which is fine, if you're willing to forgo that niche as paying customers.

However, I'm guessing that the success of games like WoW and Guild Wars and other games' moves towards pandering to soloist demands reveal that the niche is of sizeable commercial impact.

As Psychochild mentions, game design that encourage and don't punish grouping go a long way towards making grouping a pleasant experience.

Case in point, City of Heroes. A team of 8 means you can get away with having 1-3 not so effective players in a group without regular party wipes. No holy trinity reliance means less waiting around and begging for tank/heals/dps to fill that last spot. Group xp bonuses. CC that won't break on hit, allowing for people to AoE at will, and other such group synergies like stacked buffs and debuffs, and powers that are more effective as enemy numbers go up. Instances are quick and short, not grueling 1-2 hour affairs where accidental aggro by one party member means horrific setback and face pwnage by mobs with nasty death penalties with only a -chance- of reward. It may make it too easy and boring for some folks, but this sort of game design generally encourages people to be a lot more accepting of others.

I'm actually curious as to the level of grouping in CoH now, with added loot and self-set spawn sizes. One would think the inclusion of these designs would encourage a lot more solo farming, as you'd get to keep all of the phat lewt for yourself. The established community may still group out of habit, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What tales from the good old days often miss is the fact that forced grouping game designs  marginalize the soloists who can&#8217;t or won&#8217;t group as a primary playstyle preference. Which is fine, if you&#8217;re willing to forgo that niche as paying customers.</p>
<p>However, I&#8217;m guessing that the success of games like WoW and Guild Wars and other games&#8217; moves towards pandering to soloist demands reveal that the niche is of sizeable commercial impact.</p>
<p>As Psychochild mentions, game design that encourage and don&#8217;t punish grouping go a long way towards making grouping a pleasant experience.</p>
<p>Case in point, City of Heroes. A team of 8 means you can get away with having 1-3 not so effective players in a group without regular party wipes. No holy trinity reliance means less waiting around and begging for tank/heals/dps to fill that last spot. Group xp bonuses. CC that won&#8217;t break on hit, allowing for people to AoE at will, and other such group synergies like stacked buffs and debuffs, and powers that are more effective as enemy numbers go up. Instances are quick and short, not grueling 1-2 hour affairs where accidental aggro by one party member means horrific setback and face pwnage by mobs with nasty death penalties with only a -chance- of reward. It may make it too easy and boring for some folks, but this sort of game design generally encourages people to be a lot more accepting of others.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m actually curious as to the level of grouping in CoH now, with added loot and self-set spawn sizes. One would think the inclusion of these designs would encourage a lot more solo farming, as you&#8217;d get to keep all of the phat lewt for yourself. The established community may still group out of habit, though.</p>
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