Do You Admire Or Pity Hardcore Players?

South Park - World of Warcraft

Being hardcore is a surefire way to be popular with the opposite sex.

I enjoyed reading a post by Larisa a few days ago that highlighted an article written by a member of the highest ranking guild in WoW, Paragon, in which the guildie describes a typical day in his life. Check out Larisa’s post for more info about it all but, to summarise, essentially it involved Kruf, the Paragon guild member in question, squeezing in a staggering 10 hours of WoW a day whilst still holding down a full time job (and successfully living off a meger four hours sleep). There’s no question that this is about as hardcore as it gets.

I’m not going to judge Kruf as an individual and, honestly, I have no interest in how he runs his life. I do think it’s safe to say though that it’s not a healthy lifestyle for anyone (aside from the lack of sleep, sitting in front of a computer for that long isn’t good – I’ve got the posture issues to prove it) but then I’m sure he knows that already. Fact is too, if you want to be the best of the best at anything then you need to sacrifice pretty much everything else in your life to achieve it.

Of course, as a longtime MMORPGer, I’m not unfamiliar with the hardcore sterotype and I’ve seen it, to some degree, in all of the MMOs I’ve played. I’ve seen unemployed men practically live online and run the most elite guilds on the server; I’ve seen young mothers who admit to ignoring their children in order to keep playing longer; I’ve seen teenagers hide from reality in order to develop a powerful online character; and I’ve seen absolutely ordinary people get sucked into playing too much risking damage to their personal life as a result. Yeah, it can be a real tightrope to walk sometimes and turning hardcore, knowingly or not, can happen to just about anyone.

The result for gamers is that this activity creates a real split persona. In the virtual realm, you have avatars that ooze power and strength and have accomplished things that some players can only dream of. In real life though, the player is often not a powerful or wealthy or influence person merely just a normal man or woman who has sacrificed a heck of a lot to be able to invest so much time online. The prize always has to be paid and it’s a real dichotomy.

So how do I feel about these hardcore players? Well it’s funny because in game, I admire them whilst in real life, I pity them. I know they’ve given up so much to be able to achieve these feats online and make a virtual reputation for themselves and that makes me a little sad because I can’t help but think about everything important that they’re missing out on (friends, family, girls, money, booze). And yet I’m quite jealous of what they can do online. I’m jealous of the fact that they are more powerful than me and I’m jealous of the fact that they get more glory and have a higher status than I do. It’s a no-win situation.

I suppose it all boils down to the fact that I’m probably a little competitive and hate the idea that someone in-game can “beat” me just because they’ve got more time to spend than I do and this used to bug me quite a lot a few years ago. It seems somehow unfair that I wasn’t willing to give up certain activities in real life whilst hardcore gamers were and thus had an advantage in MMOs over me. I reconciled those feelings a lot time ago and now just try to look at things pragmatically. Life is a set of scales and everyone has to find a balance that suits them best.


P.S. Don’t make the mistake I made and search for “hardcore wow” on Google Images. At least not with your wife sitting in the same room.

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Related Posts

  1. Defining “Casual” And “Hardcore”
  2. Hardcore Elitism
  3. There Is No Such Thing As Casual Or Hardcore
  4. Are EVE Online Players Really That Naive?
  5. Game Life Balance


  1. Wodge says:

    I’m with you on this, I know they have a more powerful character than me, but I know that more people know who I am. Being a HC player usually means just logging in to raid, and although those raids last several hours, you don’t get any time to socialise, except with the 20 to 30 guildmates, and I’ve been in a HC guild, it’s cold and unwelcoming. I’m happy knowing I have a half-decent reputation among the rest of the server, if I wanted uber loot, a hardcore challenge, and no social interaction, I’d play Demon’s Souls.

  2. Beau says:

    Hmm, I feel neither for him. I think he’s one of the chumps who is ruining gaming — so can I say that I’d rather just pop him in the squishy, pale nose?

    Anyway who plays one single, simple game like WoW that much truly is beyond a player. He would be an obsessed, sick individual and needs to find some help, fast. If this were cleaning his house or anything other “normal” activity, we’d say (rightfully so) that he was a complete nutjob. Which he is.

    Great read though! :)


    • Arkenor says:

      I’m not really a fan of the whole “hardcore gamers as no-lifers” trope. It doesn’t really serve much of a purpose other than to give gamers who claim not to be hardcore someone to point at and feel superior to. Or apparently desire to punch in the face for “ruining games”. *boggle*

      • Gordon says:

        A lot of the negativity towards hardcore players can come from jealously. I know I felt it a lot (and probably still do a little) because I disliked the fact that I couldn’t compete with them. I’ve learnt now that it’s all about the choices we as individuals make and everyone has to find their own balance.

        I would add that it is a two-way street though and plenty of hardcore gamers look down their nose at anyone who just wants to play casually and not necessarily min/max in order to be the best possible.

    • Nerokis says:

      Is he sick and obsessed? I don’t know. I’m not sure if he’s addicted to the game, even. I know people like him often feed off of this shared sense of purpose; the idea that it’s worth shooting for #1 is validated not necessarily by some addiction or obsession, but by the fact that he’s surrounded by people who also find the competition meaningful. And this is further validated by this entire structure that exists, where greatness in WoW is celebrated by tournaments, a decent amount of coverage, connections to Blizzard developers, and even sponsorships sometimes.

      WoW is something he enjoys, I’m sure. But it’s probably the community, not the game itself, that drives him to invest so much of his time into it.

      To me, you’re being far too quick to make broad, simplistic judgments about his life. You rush to make such judgments about him, feel no pity even though he’s apparently so sick (in your eyes), and in fact want to punch him in the nose for being sick. To some, you may come off as pretty unbalanced yourself. =P

      Now, do I think he’s maximizing the use of his time? No, not at all. I don’t subscribe to the “oh, becoming #1 in a virtual world is no different from becoming one of the most physically capable people in the real world” view. You don’t have to be somehow mentally ill to make bad decisions about how you’re going to spend your life, though.

    • Dril says:

      He’s a complete nutjob? Are you out of your mind? I have nothing but respect for these people; sure, I don’t view gaming as a sport, but I still admire their dedication, and tenacity do what they enjoy. And before you say “oh well, so it’s okay for mass-murderers do be admired because they’re dedicated to it and they take some sick pleasure out of it,” let me respond with this: he’s not hurting anyone (let alone himself; Sleep is one of the least understood topics in human biology at present and some people can and will survive quite comfortably with very little sleep) and he’s contributing. If he said “I don’t have a job, so I spend all day on WoW,” I’d be with you that he’s a nutjob and he needs to sort himself out.

      But he contributes. He does what he enjoys, and not one to cast my judgement upon him.

      Also: how is he ruining the genre? If you’re Beau Hindman from Massively: how is his playing do anything but pushing developers to the limits?

  3. Rhii says:

    @beau – people who devote that kind of time and effort to a sport generally aren’t thought of as obsessed or sick. They’re thought of as a role model to children everywhere.

    But, you say, nobody devotes that kind of time to sports as an adult unless they’re doing it professionally, and it’s different when it’s your job, right? (No. It’s exactly the same thing. Do normal people devote that much time to their jobs, no we do not.) Well, at least they’re at the tip top of the heap, right? It takes that much effort to stay there. (Again, exactly the same except that generally top mmo gamers aren’t paid millions of dollars to stay at the tip top of the heap.)

    So no, we DON’T say someone’s a nutjob for being obsessive about EVERY activity. In fact, most of our public “heroes” and role models probably have lives just as skewed and unbalanced as the lives of top gamers, including top musicians, athletes, actors, astronauts and politicians.

    Do I want to be Kruf, god no. Do I think his life is any crazier than most other high achievers? Not in the slightest.

    • Doone says:

      Thank goodness for honest and frank people, Rhii. I agree with you. Because I can’t decide if we should pity the envious people or applaud them for their high horse.

    • Gordon says:

      The problem is that our aspirations and values are skewed. Yeah, we admire footballers, movie stars, business men and atheletes etc for all devoting their lives to things and yet, the reality is, it’s probably not a healthy to do plus they can cause a lot of damage to those around them. I read so many awful stories about the way footballers treat their wives and familes and it makes me cringe. These aren’t people I want as role models :) And I think a large part of why people do admire them is due to the money factor.

      Makes me wonder why we don’t pay our teachers and nurses and doctors and firemen more instead.

  4. Bhagpuss says:

    Writers, artists, sportspeople, model railway enthusiasts, they’ll all spend every waking hour on their obsession. Nothing remotely unusual about it and nothing even marginally original to gaming or MMOs either.

    I know people from my working environment who read for as many hours in a week as this guy plays WoW. Do people call them “sick”? Not nowadays they don’t, no. Nowadays they are held up as role models. When I was a child, however, obsessive reading was considered every bit as anti-social as obsessive gaming is today. Watch some kitchen-sink movies from the early 1960s and see the change taking place.

    It’s a cultural signifier, that’s all. Gaming = invalid use of time, reading = valid. No objective difference between them. Fashions of acceptability in these things come and go. In the end, none of it matters a jot. We arrive. we hang around for a bit, then we die. What we do inbetween scarcely registers.

    • Gordon says:

      “We arrive. we hang around for a bit, then we die. What we do inbetween scarcely registers.”

      Hehe. There is a good argument for just spending your time on this earth as you enjoy it and I think that’s a valid one.

  5. Klepsacovic says:

    I pity them in a way, but why? What they do is socially marginal, but it’s not harmful to anyone but possibly themselves, so what’s really so bad about it? I’m jealous in some ways, for their ability to devote so much to it and their success, but at the same time would I really want WoW to be my job? I don’t think so.

  6. Beau says:


    Playing a video game, which means sitting at a PC, is not healthy when you sacrifice your health. Are you guys attempting to say that a world class athlete spends his time sitting on his butt so long that he sacrifices his sleep?

    That’s like saying that someone who is REALLY dedicated to doing drugs isnt crazy because he works hard at it.

    Remember, the key here is that he sacrifices his sleep and I guarantee his health for something that is not making him money or famous. This guy is nuts, unhealthy and should not be admired by anyone.


    • Shadow-war says:

      So, focusing on something to the exlcussion of some comforts is only permissable if it leads to an end goal within your predefined defintiions of “acceptable”?


      It has been argued, and I’m sure will be again, that the goal of “becoming famous” is not an esteemable goal.

      This player (or any hardcore plyers) has determined what he wants to get out of a particular area, sees what they have to give up for it, and has accepted that. Each individual can and should make decisions about their life and goals as they see most fitting. As long as their choices do not impinge on the freedom or safety of others, there is ZERO reason to deride or insult that choice. They have merely chosen a different way of living their lives.

    • Dril says:

      See above, but: drugs argument is bullshit. Durggies negatively impact society because a) they generally aren’t working if they’re stoned all the time; b) they give money to an illegal activity and c) they’re provably destroying their won bodies very, very quickly.

      Also: who’s to say he can’t spend say, the next 2 months getting back into shape. This isn’t his entire lifestyle every day of the year, it’s his lifestyle when he’s performing at his peak: i.e. world firsts. I get fat over the summer because there’s less to do, more to eat and no sports to play since rugby is damn painful in the summer. I work it off in winter.

      Condemn me, please, but give me your own lifestyle first to spew all over.

    • Rhii says:

      I don’t understand why health is supposed to trump happiness anyway. Maybe he’d be more healthy doing something else. Obviously he doesn’t think he’d be more happy that way. Why is it that healthy + unhappy is inherently better than unhealthy + happy?

      Or is it that you’re so much better fit to make people’s decisions for them that you KNOW they’d be happier a different way?

      Unhealthy people are not inherently bad, nor inherently unhappy. Assuming that they must be just makes you an elitist ass.

    • Gordon says:

      “That’s like saying that someone who is REALLY dedicated to doing drugs isnt crazy because he works hard at it.”

      ROFL :D

  7. Hirvox says:

    Knowledge gained by experts can be used by dilettantes and thus benefit a larger population, even if it’s just for the sake of entertainment. Hardcore raiders’ strategy guides were the reason why I was able to maintain a 13-hour/week schedule in TBC and clear everything up to Mu’ru.

  8. Mike says:

    I remember there were days where I played WoW for 13+ hours. I felt like if I wasn’t playing WoW I was wasting time where I could be leveling my character or getting Epic gear. Looking back now, I can see how crazy I was.

    I played way too much and I wasn’t even close to being one of the top players in the game. People who are the top guildmasters with all epic gear, really must make WoW their lives and do nothing else but play WoW.

    It’s crazy to think that some people dedicate their entire lives to WoW, but unfortunately this is true in some cases.

    • Gordon says:

      I think it’s easy to get caught up in it. I know I have been. I can recall times of playing Everquest for 8 hours in a day. It was a lot of fun but I’m not sure, in the grand scheme of things in my life, how productive and worthwhile it was. I mean I have nothing to show for it other than awesome stories to regale to my blog readers :P

  9. SlothBear says:

    I admire anyone who lives their life the way they want to. If that means sitting in front of a computer playing video games, more power to you.

    When they start boasting about it like they’re accomplishing something, that’s when I pity them.

  10. Nils says:

    Do you pity the soccer player who earns millions, but does nothing but play soccer for 20 years of his life? Do you pity the guy who works in the coal mine, because ‘working hard is the right thing do to’ ? Do you pity the manager of a bank, who suddenly realizes that he has done nothing of significance for 65 years?
    Do you pity the guy who stands still in front of that tank .. and gets run over?

    Stop pitying people!

  11. sean says:

    why pity anyone for their own choices?

    it’s like Nils says: if you want to achieve the most possible from your chosen hobby, you need to put the time into it. End of Story. the only time pity comes into play is if, in making the sacrifices necessary, you either a: sacrifice *too* much (lose the job, for example) or b: DON’T achieve the most possible (dedicate your life to football but then not make the grade).

    i’ve been that raider; i’ve done the average 60 hours a week gaming for months at a time, whilst still working full-time. you cut out sleep, mostly, and after-work activities. it doesn’t make you a freak though, just someone who is dedicated to achieving their aims in their hobby of choice.

  12. Longasc says:

    Well Kruf is hardcore – definitely. But his lifestyle is sick and obsessed. This is an addiction and needs treatment, even if he thinks it’s okay. I do not think it is a valid “choice of lifestyle”, it is too extreme for that.

    But are all hardcore players like that?
    I think there are people who can be considered hardcore (me for instance?) without being such a fail.

    There are also casual players who are to blame that “casual” by now just means “goddamn bad MMO solo player”. I know many people that consider themselves “casual” gamers while playing every Beta of every MMO in existence as well. The words hardcore and casual are a dichotomy mostly used for bashing the other on blogs and forums.

    I also had a raiding till either Ragnaros virtually or my raid group physically stopped to exist phase many years ago, where I decided to stop that. A recent 5 hour full Helegrod (i.e. 3 “wings” and the main boss wing) raid in LOTRO (while totally fun, smooth raid, great company!) convinced me again that I simply no longer need and absolutely do not want to do that anymore. This means not even “casual” 1-2 hour raids, regardless of game. I hate Raid planners and DKP systems with a passion by now and rather do random heroics (to stay in WoW lingo, in LOTRO that’s rather Halls of Crafting and Sammath Gul) and can do a lot of things that are a lot of fun and not tied to emblems/dailies and all that.

    One does not need to be as extreme as Krul to fall into unhealthy MMO playing habits.

    • Gordon says:

      The time constraints on raids are one of the reasons that I rarely do it now too. I hate the idea of having to conform to a schedule and not being able to take the “night off” and just watch TV if I wanted to. I don’t want my hobby to turn into a second job.

  13. vortal says:

    The reason famous singers and musicians are famous is because they do devote this kind of time and effort into this. Athletes spend tremendous amounts of hours to hone their skill in their sport, musicians and dancers practice all the time. It’s because they are willing to give up on so many things that make them succeed or become famous in what they do. It also has to do with talent, but mostly with hard work and training.

    Hardcore Gamers are somewhat an Online Athlete, but I do 100% agree that this is totally unhealthy. People that are seriously hooked and can’t get away from it like a smoker or an alcoholic need to seek help.

    • vortal says:

      So for me there is a definite border between a Hardcore Gamer (committed gamer) and an Addict.

    • Gordon says:

      As I replied to Rhii, I don’t necessarily think that we should admire people like athletes and singers etc because they aren’t necessarily doing something good either and often their focus can cause havoc in other parts of their lives. Personally I don’t understand why anyone can admire a football player after reading about some of the things they do.

  14. gevlon says:

    “I can’t help but think about everything important that they’re missing out on (friends, family, girls, money, booze)”

    This stinks from your own (culture’s) social values. I missed out on booze before I knew there are computer games (I never drink). The monks miss out on girls and money and many consider them holy men. And above all, half of the mankind miss out on girls (because they ARE girls). Shall we pity them too?

    Your article is mostly “I pity anyone who doesn’t have what my culture says they should have”. Watch American Beauty!

    • Gordon says:

      That statement was intended as irony ;)

      As for judging others against our own values, it’s something we all do. We can’t help it because our mind is subjected to values (good or bad) from everywhere around us from the moment we are born. It’s what makes us human. The trick is not to be too extreme about it.

      Like I said though, I do admire these gamers quite a lot. But I also pity them for having to give up so much other aspects of their lives (which I value more than MMOs). For the same reasons I also pity plenty of other people such as workaholics or sportsmen or people without ambition. In fact, I pity lots of folk.

      Mostly though, I just pity fools :D

  15. Rebecca Judd says:

    Interesting discussion. I’m with the folks who say that being a hardcore, top gamer is like being a top athlete or any other role in which you ply and hone your talents.

    Yes, Kruf’s choice is physically unhealthy – although I’ve recently heard there are increasing ways to get at least some aerobic exercise while sitting at a desk and there’s plenty of papers and theories out there suggesting we don’t need all that much sleep.

    But the crux of this comes out of the point Nils makes. So many people fritter their lives away and end up looking back thinking “well dog’s rumpus, I sure wasted my time” rather than looking back and saying “Hah! I actually managed to do what I wanted to do and had a whale of a time.” If Kruf’s choices means that in his later life he manages to do the latter rather than the former, I say good luck to him.

  16. Campitor says:

    We all have to die one day. If on your deathbed one of your treasured recollections is being world 1st on killing a raid boss then I say you spent your time wisely; your achievement gave you a very fond memory and slice of happiness to recall on your darkest of days. If the aformentioned scenario seems foolish to you then I say you wasted a large part of your life on something that only brought you intransient cheer and little else.

  17. Maxivik says:

    I recently read this article about other “healthy activities” dominating peoples lives. Is this better then playing wow 10 hours a day?

    Just goes to show, all things in moderation, even world of warcraft!

  18. Mathias says:

    Now i don´t feel that bad about my my bronze league placement in Starcraft 2 anymore.

  19. Epiny says:

    I’m very meh about it. As you may know from my posting history here I use to be hardcore in EQ. I understand the mentality. I don’t admire or pity them to be honest though.

    I can’t help but draw dozens of other comparisons I see every day of people who do something to an extreme and unhealthy degree but are considered healthy because society views that so. The fact that this is a video game, and there is so much anti-health propaganda out there with regards to video games, makes it very easy to dismiss this person as an overweight unhealthy video game addict. I believe this to be an incorrect generalization.

    I think the best casual, hardcore quote I ever heard was “Anyone who plays more than me is hardcore and anyone who plays less than me is casual.” It essentially means everyone thinks they play the perfect amount… or are always right.

  20. Doone says:

    Yeah I’m not sure why anyone, including Gordon, is pitying anyone. Perhaps it is more accurate that invokes a feeling that you feel about yourselves.

    As many others have already put it here, there is nothing wrong with people who pursue the things they love and enjoy in their lives. It is commendable. Because the truth is, most of us don’t have the balls to defy social norms. We’re too busy pretending ‘we’re not weird” because we play whatever video game. We’re too busy saying things like “I play wow, but i have a life”, as if that qualifies something. All it qualifies is your insecurity about how you spend your free time. You should admire Kruf for not being an apologist for what he loves, like most of the posters here seem to be.

    There is nothing unhealthy about his decision; it is his. I don’t get people like you guys. Love what you do, all your hobbies, games, work, whatever …and don’t try to take that away from others by judging them against whats “normal”. Everyone here should know that there is no such thing.

    • Nerokis says:

      I wouldn’t invoke the “you’re projecting” card in this case. Someone could easily say it’s you that’s projecting: that by retreating to the idea that nothing is normal and therefore there’s no real standard by which playing a MMO some amount could be judged, you’re simply relieving yourself of the need to question the worthiness of something you love.

      Plus, I don’t think the point is how “normal” he is. You’re framing this as if we’re all still in high school, and some of us are just trying to fit in by marginalizing our hobbies. I somehow doubt most of the people here are looking at this through that lens.

      Rather, everything has an opportunity cost. I find it hard to admire Kruf for investing so much time into a virtual world. It certainly doesn’t take balls to sit in front of a screen and play a video game. It does take balls, though, to look at your life through a critical lens. Here’s a reality check on how unhealthy it is to sit around too much, for example: (“You sitting down? Experts say it’ll kill you”)

      I love video games. I just don’t feel the need to pretend that revolving your life around playing one is usually conducive toward a healthy lifestyle (mentally and physically; in terms of living up to your potential; in terms of having a decent vantage point from which to appreciate the actual world; so on and so on). Ultimately, I’m not going to judge Kruf’s lifestyle: we all go through phases, it’s possible he’s a well rounded person, maybe he’s truly happy where he is right now, and maybe his lifestyle dramatically changes once the race is over. But we should be able to both embrace our hobby and acknowledge its shortcomings/limitations. That’s healthy.

      • Shadow-war says:

        Again, the above is an example of a person putting health at the pinnacle of importance to another person’s value judgements. Each person makes the determination of what is important in their lives, and how much they wish to dedicate to those things. Presuming that your own person value assessment of importance needs to be upheld by another is the height of hubris.

        If a person decides that being a leader for a cause is the most important aspect of their lives, then they can decide how much to sacrafice for it. If that means that they become a martyr, as foriegn missionaries for religions frequently become, then that is a VERY unhealthy choice (death being the epitomy of un-health). But it does not make it any less valid of a choice. They saw value in their actions, and accepted the sacrafice the action may require.

        Provide all the links to “informative internet articles” as desired. Chances are, it’s not a lack of knowledge of potential side-effects that keep people from participating in activities. Usually, it’s because of a general disinterest toward said activities. They don’t value it’s worth.

    • Gordon says:

      For me it’s a real split of emotion because as someone who values his family and other pursuits, I feel pity for anyone who excludes those things from their life. Likewise though, I admiration for someone who has the balls to do something I can’t and achieve the things I only aspire to.

  21. Jomu says:

    i agree with the pity (loss of other areas of life) and the admiration of what they can do in game, except for the jealousy; I accept that they are better b/c they can put that effort into the game to be the best at what they do. Just like anything in life, if you put the time into it, you can succeed; that hardcore person just chose to put it into a game.

    i do believe it is unhealthy and self-destructive to be so addicted or hardcore in a virtual game as my own life is a product of part of that addiction. Thankfully, we have the ability to change who we are at any time ;)

  22. I don’t know if I pity or admire hardcore players. I say if you are doing what you like and are living what you feel is a fulfilled life, all the power to you, as long as you don’t let your wants, needs and obligations in the rest of your life go to ruin. That schedule of Kruf’s is sort of crazy, but then I know other people who can throw everything into a hobby, not just games. And it’s funny, but sometimes, I feel that some people actually need that sort of purpose.

  23. StephanieM says:

    I’m glad someone mentioned hobbies. What if my hobby was lampwork (blowtorch to melt glass). I would constantly be sitting and doing one thing. Making shapes and decorations for myself. That’s considered a hobby if you put many hours in one task, but gaming isn’t? It’s not viewed the same.

    Pity the person who doesn’t have a home, lives on the street and holds a coffee can for change =)

    Married, no kids, husband works out of town, I work 40hrs a week(on a PC) and play Warhammer from the time I get home until the time I go to bed. lol 7ish hours of sleep =P

    What about the person that sits and watches TV from the time they go home until the time they go to bed? Should I pity them too?

    • Gordon says:

      You’re right. In the grand scheme of things, pity someone who plays a game is really rubbish isn’t it :) I suppose the same goes for admiration too because we should be admiring the people who put their lives on the line every day or help save helps and make the world a better place. I guess all of that makes everything else seem petty in comparison :)

  24. Ixana says:

    I’m surprised this hasn’t already been mentioned, but we do all realise that this isn’t how most hardcore players live all year round, right? After they’ve got their first kills / achievements they go back to just clearing everything for gear once a week and most of them don’t play much outside of those raids. Hardly unhealthy or obsessive methinks.

  25. [...] it has stirred quite a bit of conversation from the likes of fellow bloggers Pink Pigtail Inn, We Fly Spitfires, as well as others. The main question seems to be, “should we pity or praise such [...]

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