RIFT vs The Cookie Cutter Monster

Cookie Monster

The Cookie Monster. Teaching addiction to children.

In my previous post I wrote about how RIFT made me appreciate the class and talent design of World of Warcraft more than before – it’s all very streamlined and simple when compared to the huge amount of freedom, thought and decisions that RIFT offers. A nice little conversation sparked off in the comments section about whether or not this wealth of variety and option would reduce the appeal of following cookie cutter builds and I wanted to explore that thought a little more.

Personally, I have no doubt that we’ll see the gradual and increased rise of cookie cutter builds emerging in RIFT. It’s human nature, simple as that. We are all driven (well, most of us) to achieve perfection and be the “best” at the things we love so there’s a huge, overwhelming desire to keep fiddling and tweaking with things until they’re prefect, regardless of whether or not that pursuit is actually achievable. Not only is this ideal of perfection part of our natural psychology but I also believe it’s part of the fun and enjoyment we gain from playing RPGs. They cater to this base instinct of adjustment and progress and allow us to derive a lot of satisfaction from the process.

Of course, however and more to the point, we’re also lazy and competitive creatures that want to achieve perfection as soon as possible and thus there is a great attraction to following the cookie cutter build, a template of talents or soul points or whatever depending on the game, that gives us the biggest bang for our buck. We then pile on a healthy does of peer pressure (having been subject to it ourselves) to try and persuade others to do the same. “Don’t have a certain talent spec? Sorry, don’t want you. We need that extra 0.5% DPS.” This unfortunately then perpetuates a pretty vile achievement based culture (but that’s another blog post).

So yes, I think we will see a pretty solid growth in the amount of cookie cutter builds out there for RIFT. But do I think it will ever get as bad as WoW? No.

I honestly think RIFT will manage to maintain a certain degree of individuality in its soul specs for two reasons. Firstly, the sheer number of souls, abilities, points and combinations of distribution will make it very difficult (maybe even impossible) to accurately gauge the “success” of a particular build. Unlike WoW, which has – in my opinion – too many talent points per tier and thus a significantly reduced number of combinations, RIFT is just brimming with limitless combinations and possibilities. It’s going to very hard to crack them all. Secondly, and maybe even more importantly, there is no way to (unless I’ve completely missed how to do it) actually see what soul build your friends are using.

This obfuscation, whether done on purpose or not, is actually a rather beautiful thing as it stops any form of competition or arguing over builds with people you encounter. Again unlike WoW, in which you get inspected like a young chimpanzee being groomed by it’s mother whenever you join a new PUG, there is no way to perform the same talent/soul point inspection in RIFT. I hope it stays that way.

Anyway, there you have some of my rather lovely thoughts. Let me know yours.

-Gordon

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Related Posts

  1. RIFT Makes Me Appreciate WoWs Class Design More
  2. Returning To RIFT
  3. The Soul System aka Class Flexibility
  4. RIFT Open Beta Impressions
  5. Free RIFT For Five Friends This Weekend

53 Comments

  1. Syl says:

    I mostly stumbled over one thing in your post, I certainly agree with the 2 final points you have stated. referring to this though – “we will see a pretty solid growth in the amount of cookie cutter builds out there for RIFT”, while that might be true, I still feel it’s a great difference to me, as a player, if I have to come up with those myself rather than the talent charts pretty much pre-scribing them already. even if one is an ‘illusion of choice’ in parts, i don’t nearly feel as ‘babysat’ in RIFT as I did with cataclysm. it really felt almost like an insult – yeah, the crossword might only have one (or three) correct answers, but can i at least fill it out myself? thanks.

  2. Epiny says:

    I agree Gordon. People keep harping on cookie cutter specs but the goal of them is to get the most out of your character. Let’s forget about the everyone is doing it discussion for one second, the cookie cutter specs are proven to be the best spec for the role they are filling. When games offer enchantments, food buffs, runes, or other things that increase your dps, healing, or mitigation by a half percent and are considered “worth it” then cookie cutter specs will continue to be popular.

    Cookie Cutter specs in Rift will exist, however they wont be as forced upon the playerbase as other MMOs as long as rifts allow for anyone to join a group and obtain rewards. When the 20 man raids come out I think we will see how this really pans out.

  3. browolf says:

    It’s good that someone’s realised that “too much information” is not a good thing and in rift will certainly hamper the general game populace to figure out what’s best and limit how they can act over it. It’s in inevitable with serious raid style content that clever people will figure stuff out. The only questions are whether the desire for perfection outweighs the freedom to experiment and how much of the game population gets into serious raiding and then utilises that knowledge in alts. When knowledgeable alts outweigh casual experimenters that’s when the problems will start.

  4. Gankalicious says:

    How very dare you say something bad about the cookie monster. Teaching addiction to children? Are you mad? I watched Sesame religiously as a kid and I have no cookie-related addictions. I’m usually too wasted on heroin to eat anyway, so there you go, your theory proved wrong.

  5. Barrista says:

    Well, one of the things I enjoyed in WoW was playing with my mage’s spec and experimenting. I found arcane incredibly boring and decided to just have fun with her, so on any given day I might have been fire or arcane or ice. Besides, it is not like EJ or other players were paying for my subscription, I was.

    Even for my ret paladin, I didn’t do what EJ said completely. I went down the holy line when they said prot sometimes. I tried to get something that most ret pally’s wouldn’t have, but would be helpful in certain group situations even if it meant my dps was 100 less than the next ret paladin. It was usually appreciated by my guild in raids when needed. But when WoW took away some options pre-cata, I decided to spend my money elsewhere. I enjoyed playing with the trees, even if just a slight variation, to continue paying for the more restrictive version.

    Oddly enough, for my first toon in Rift I chose a defensive rogue. I’m always sure I have screwed my toon up and so I finally looked on a Rift board and find… that I have chosen what many think are the 3 perfect classes for rogue tanking.

    Anyway, I’m confused, you equate the cookie cutter specs to “vile achievement based culture”, but yet you say you appreciate it?

    • Gordon says:

      To clarify, I don’t like (personally) following cookie cutter specs or achievement cultures. I do appreciate the simplicity and elegance of WoW’s class & talent tree design though (assuming that’s what you were referring to!). It’s just so streamlined and slick.

      • Barrista says:

        But isn’t that what they have essentially done by streamlining the tree? Basically made you have little to no choice (for some classes) other than that cookie-cutter spec?

  6. Garumoo says:

    My thinking is that wherever you have just one end-game objective/activity (eg. raids) then cookie-cutter specs will likely follow. If however there were more things to do, and more ways of accomplishing those goals (eg. can we, for once, legitimately have the option to sneak around the trash [and get equivalent XP/loot]) … then there would be more flexibility.

  7. c says:

    yes, yes, yes and YES!

  8. SmakenDahed says:

    It will happen. I suspect it will require more obvious logs or something along the lines of Recount (if they ever open up add ons), but it will happen.

    As soon as there is obvious data as to which tank spec takes the least damage while generating the most threat or most efficient healer spec or most ridiculous damage specs are posted, people will flock to them.

    Assuming people last.

  9. Bhagpuss says:

    As I commented on an earlier thread, I’m having real difficulty acclimatising to the “many-in-one” nature of the Rift character. After a month or play, and having played all the betas, I have so far really only tried two or three souls in each of three Callings.

    I have real issues about thinking of my character as being the same person when I swap him from a Chloro/Dominator to an Ele/Pyro. It feels like I’m playing another character altogether, and I find myself surprised that he still has the same quests and the same things in his bags.

    With this potential level of complexity I just can’t imagine trying to optimise anything. A Cookie Cutter build would stop me having to think about it, that’s true, but really I am having more than enough trouble learningto use the abilities I’ve thought about and chosen for myself. To try and learn them second-hand from someone else’s reccomendations sounds even harder.

    If I feel I’m stuck or struggling, then I will look around for advice. At the moment, though, that’s not happening. My builds are all over the shop and no-doubt would be laughable to min-maxers, but I’m getting done what I need to get done and having fun doing it. So no Cookies for me, for the time being.

    • João Carlos says:

      @Bhagpuss Chloro/dominator? Sorry, only if you are an experienced healer. Too many abilities for use, heal and cc, need be a very good player for use them eficiently. And really good healers will use chloro/archon, healer and buffer, but too need be a very good player for use all that abiliteis at same time, too many buttons and macros.

      A easy way to start chloro is try chloro/warlock, just use points on warlock for make the spells go faster, forget the warlock damage spells and use only the chloro healing. As players that go mage normally want be dps, that chloro build will work fine for emergencies.

      You too will find some people saying to use chloro/necormancer. I see some advantages, there is the pet and you gain a nice heal other spell and it is a very good build for PvP. And a chloro/stormcaller or chloro/pyromancer is very good if you want solo, it is very dificult a mob kill you.

      Anyway, a raid NEED to have at least one chloro because the healing work at every member of the raid and people will build the raid with the players that they have, not the players they want, so, they will get someone with chloro main, anyway they cannot see what is the secondary or tertiary soul and have no idea where you used your poinst, just be sure to use enough points at chloro for have that instant all raid 100 % heal…

      If you noted, all bla-bla-bla above have 6 diferent builds for chloro… and all they will work at raids (just have the instant all raid 100% heal…). Some will work better solo, other will work better group, some will be better for PvP.

      Now, let me start with Ele/Pyro. It is good, but I prefer Ele/Storm… greater pets will AOE, so can be good idea you AOE too.

    • Gordon says:

      Yeah I feel much in the same way… all of my roles and specs and are a complete nightmare and probably full of redundant stuff and waste of points. I’m kinda enjoying it though :P

  10. numtini says:

    In raids, unless they are trivially easy, “The maximum is the minimum.” If a dev is going to tune a raid to be challenging, it’s going to require being min-maxed because someone’s going to min-max and for them it won’t be challenging.

    However, I think you can overcome that by a careful design of trees so that the optimal spec still allows some additional options for flavor. I don’t have enough experience with Rift to know if that’s how they’re set up, but here’s hoping.

  11. João Carlos says:

    Gordon, at same time you say cokie-cutter will exist and it is not possible one exist. There are some serious fault at your logic.

    Guys, just take a time looking at the chat levels 1-9. You will see new players asking for advice. Just see what advice they receive about builds. It is insane. Because there are so diferent builds that people will advice to use that I am sure the newbie will end more confused. And it is common see someone just say “build anything you like”.

    You too can test it creating an alt from a calling you have no experience. Then ask to your guild. I just tryed it yesterday… my alt is a cleric (druid/shaman/justicar… and don’t start it, I want the pet and it is a build for solo… and I see a lot of players with the satyr pet, so someone is using druid as main soul) and I bought two new roles for build a “group/instance healer” and a “dps ranged”. You can see I have some idea what cleric offer. And I asked to my guild what to build… and I get 5 diferent suggestion for builds… and there are level 50 at my guild.

    Before that, when I created the alt last saturday, I had asked to my guild what was a good solo cleric build before create the alt, and I get 7 diferent suggestions, then I limited my choices and I said “I want the satyr pet”, so druid will be main soul” and guild members give me 3 diferent suggestions for what souls I add to druid…

    Summary: it is crazyness. Ask to diferent people and each one will give a diferent advice. You can test it.

    That is the reason I am sure we never will see a cookie-cutter at Rift: it is impossible.

  12. Drew says:

    No, it’s certainly possible; and it will happen. There are not an infinite number of possibilities, just a large number of them. Damage parses will be done to determine which abilities do the most damage, and end-game players will flock to those builds. You, yourself, indicated a Chloromancer was a NEED for raids. Even more comically, perhaps, you tried to steer Bhagpuss away from his Chloro/Dominator build into something more ‘mainstream’.

    The combination of newness + sheer number of souls is what’s delaying the inevitable. It’s going to take longer than it did with WoW because of the number of builds possible, but don’t kid yourself into thinking the number-crunchers won’t break the code, so to speak. They will.

    If “fun” can be optimized out of a game, people will find a way to do it – of that I’m certain. ;)

    • João Carlos says:

      @Drew

      are you sure I tried steer Bragpuss to something more mainstream?

      Let me see, there are 8 PvE souls per calling, chloro is main soul, he is using chloro/dominator and I sugested 6 diferent builds.

      So, that are 8 souls total, don’t?

      Aparently, mainstream is any build you use…

      • Bhagpuss says:

        Well firstly I don’t raid, so how my build plays in raiding is immaterial.

        Secondly, I am an experienced healer, if playing healing classes in MMOs for a dozen years counts as experienced.

        And thirdly my point was about how the soul system affects my roleplaying, not my efficiency.

        Apart from that, thanks for the advice :P

        • João Carlos says:

          Bhagpuss,

          sorry if my try of be ironic made you misunderstud my position. When someone advice ot other one to try all diferent combinations it is the same to say “try what you want”. And that is the exact advice that I give to anyone at channel levels 1-9: “try what you want, try what you like most, all will work”

          I just used your post for attack the idea that Rift will have a cookie-cutter. And it is just the raids that make people want cookie-cutters, that is the reason I give some enphasis to raidsfor say any chloromancer build will be accepted at raids.

  13. pkudude99 says:

    I just read a 10-page thread today on the official forums debating various builds for a tanking cleric. The only point of agreement is that the Justicar soul has the most points, but even with that agreement, the debate rages as to how many — 32, 38, 44, or the full 51.

    Personally, I’m a fan of the 38 Justicar / 16 Shaman / 12 Inquisitor build for tanking. Wait, what? I put a caster dps soul into my melee tanking build? Yes, I did. And for others who discuss the viability of it, they generally only put 6 points in it if they take it at all.

    Shaman is often regarded as “necessary” for a secondary soul to Justicar, but 8 points is considered to be ideal by many, while others like a 44/22 Justiman.

    Someone else with a 32/26 Justicar/Shaman build said he tanked a T1 expert instance using a 2H weapon, and yeah, his Justi points were completely out of all the “required” blocking talents since he didn’t have a shield and so couldn’t block.

    And here’s the kicker — all of these builds are viable. Maybe not in every situation, but in a great many of them. And this is why I think that while there will be the “main builds” that many/most people use since they’ll seem to have the greatest viability in the greatest number of scenarios, there will still be others who use different builds beyond those “cookie cutter” ones due to the fact that they’ll still work fine.

    Yes, there are the min/maxers and all that, but my experience is that the vast majority of the players have the attitude that “it died, we didn’t, therefore we won” and don’t care about that extra 0.5% of dps or hps on the parser, and thus people can play in their non-cookie cutter builds and have fun and still do well.

    • João Carlos says:

      @pkudude99

      The problem with min/max is exactly what you foresee:

      “[...] all of those builds are viable. Maybe not in every situation, [...]”

      All that builds are viable, but some will be more viable at some situations and other will be viable at diferent situations. A min/max need first ask: for what situation I want maximize gains? Because there are a lot of diferent situations possible:PvP, raid, solo, dungeons, rifting, invasions, exploration (I am not exhagerating, there are soul builds that are better for exploration)…

      So, yes, there is a 10-page thread debating cleric tank and they cannot agree, except for the fact that the main soul need be justicar. And there are 10+ page threads debating each soul at each calling. Sometimes, there are 10+ page threads discussing ONE specific build…

      That is insane and I think we need be rational: the effort to max/min will compensate? For what, 1% of damage diference? And for a diference that appear maybe only at a specific situation?

      Marginal profits, guys, marginal profits…

    • Gordon says:

      So long a Trion can juggle everything and keep the majority of soul combinations viable then it will definitely put a dent in the cookie cutter market. Here’s hoping they can keep it all balanced!

      • João Carlos says:

        balanced for what?

        It will never be balanced for PvP, the game is PvE.

        If it “balanced” is any class have a chance to enter a group, well, it is working. Mages can heal and rogues and clerics can tank…

  14. Cookie cutter builds themselves aren’t the problem. The problem comes when other players demand that your character must be built a certain way. RIFT’s flexible character system isn’t responsible for that, because you get the same thing in WoW’s class system (or at least you did pre-Cataclysm when I played).

    The problem with a lot of cookie-cutter builds is that they make a lot of assumptions that may not be true, such as reaction times, lack of lag, the ability to remain stationary, etc. I prefer to plan my own builds around my own limitations. Which is one reason why I like static groups rather than PUGs, because your static groups tend to know your capabilities.

    DDO has a very flexible system for building characters based on D&D 3rd edition’s classes. (Unfortunately, it is pretty easy to “gimp” your character if you’re not careful.) But, I like building interesting characters. One time while playing a Monk/Rogue someone literally said, “Where did you get that shit build?” That person shut up when the kill count for the quest showed I was ahead of everyone else at the end. :)

    • João Carlos says:

      @Brian ‘Psychochild’ Green

      “Cookie cutter builds themselves aren’t the problem. The problem comes when other players demand that your character must be built a certain way.”

      The problem about this discussion is this: exactly HOW other players will do that in Rift, if the only thing you see is the other player calling? The main soul is not visible, the secondary and tertiary souls aren’t visible, the point distribution is not visible. So, how players can choose who will enter a group or a raid if they cannot see it?

      That problem happen at PvP. All mages use same gear, so that mage with an undead pet is just a necromancer or she is too a chloromancer? Remember, kill the healer first, asap…

      And to make things worse, no one agree what is better for any soul, just go look the official forums. And I think parsers are not helping that choice, because each diferent situation the parser will give a diferent number.

      And I sincerelly I think that Drew comment is the real comedy here, he is not playing Rift and don’t know that if there are most mages that prefer chloromancer/warlock is because that build is EASIER to play (no need for macros), not because it gives better parser numbers: all the other builds have better parser numbers than chloromancer/warlock…

      But you NEED a chloromancer at a raid, so you go with the chloromancer that you have and not with the chloromancer/any other that not exist and, anyway, you cannot see the primary, secondary and tertiary soul, you need believe me if I say I changed to chlormancer build.

      And I am mage level 50 in Rift, so I am talking about things I see in game. I am not talking about a game I am not playing…

      • Drew says:

        @JC: I see you’ve taken my comment too personally. But let me clarify something for you: I did, in fact, play RIFT – albeit briefly, and as a rogue. My point was meant to be somewhat light-hearted, especially in closing, in that if players can find a way to optimize “fun” out of the game, they will. It happens in every MMO. There will be an equivalent to Elitist Jerks for RIFT at some point; I’d put good money on it.

        You may have a point regarding the visibility of the specs, but when people ask questions in chat regarding an ability you do or don’t have, it’ll come out at some point. And you don’t think people will ask how you spec in order to join a ‘raid guild’?

        Gordon’s fear is legit – I wonder how long it will be before RIFT has an Armory.

        • Epiny says:

          I don’t see how anyone who has played any MMO in the last 10 years can play Rift and think, “Oh yeah this will be different. People won’t min/max here”.

          That is all cookie cutter builds are, min/maxing your performance. The game isn’t very old and there are alot of possibilities in Rift so it isn’t surprising that we haven’t seen the specs get widdled down yet, but that doesn’t mean it wont happen.

          You CAN play Rift and just public group farm Rifts with any spec, we aren’t saying that. However if you plan on getting into good guilds and do the raid content you are going to be required to have certain specs in the future.

          • João Carlos says:

            @Drew and @Epiny

            You can optimize damage, you cannot optimize fun. There is no metrics for fun and no add can measure it. Fun it is what you think it is fun and that can be tanking, dps melee, dps ranged, healing, buffing, PvP. Diferent builds at same class will do each one. So, everyone can have fun with any spec they choose.

            The name of the game is RIFT and it is exactly that the game is about. RIFT use the public quest sytem, that WAR launched but never knew how to use to maximize the effect.

            The public quests are the MOST IMPORTANT aspect of the game. Something that GW2 too will try. IMHO, the public quest system is the future of MMO. All that discussion about the normal quests that RIFT offer just show it: there is a serious problem with the normal quests, the model is out dated. The players want a dinamic world, something that the current thecnology only permit if using public quests or doing a sandbox.

            The mos important part of RIFT is just closing rifts and fighting invasions. And as you said Epiny, you can use any spec for that.

            RIFT is not about the raid at the end of game. RIFT is not about the dungeons and expert dungeons. RIFT IS ABOUT THE RIFTS.

            What Trion are showing the players now at this 1.1 patch is exactly that: they can change the game just changing the rifts that open at each zone. And when they change the rifts, it is not only the “skin” they change: the strategy for win that rift change too. So, they can change each zone at RIFT changing the rift’s content every time they want.

            And sadly, you show the real problem when you say “good guilds”…

            Be serious, what is a “good” guild? Who define what is a “good” guild?

            Well, let me tell you a secret that we see when we get to level 50: you can do raids at Rift with people you join from “lfg” and “level 50″ and “endgame” chats. And you want know it? It works.

            The “raid” guilds are killing Greenscale first? Yes. But eventually EVERYONE will kill it. Random groups are doing the T1 expert dungeons and the casuals are getting the same gear you need have for go against Greenscale. Sooner or later we will see random raids doing that.

            So, what is “good” about the “raid” guilds? They just run fast to the end, something that everyone will do sooner or later. Well, maybe they can use a t-shirt with “I killed Greenscale fisrt”…

            So, exactly who that is playing RIFT that need a “raid” guild? RIFT is more casual friendly than WoW at this aspect…

            That is the real problem: your mentality. Grow up. Evolve. The world changes and if you cannot follow the changes, you will be left behind.

            No one playing RIFT is caring about specs. Only who is not playing RIFT that think it will have “cookie-cutter” specs. And ignorance is not knowledge.

            • Drew says:

              @JC: Yes, people can have fun however they want – you’re missing the point. When I say people optimize the fun out of the game, I’m getting at this:

              Say you want to join a raiding guild, you will be expected to have a specific spec. Or, perhaps what will become more prevalent in the case of RIFT, you will be expected to play all three roles your class is capable of. That’s a requirement for Stabs’ guild – if memory serves me right. I might not like healing, but if I’m a rogue, I’d better have a bard spec or I’m not a “full raider”.

              That’s the optimization I’m talking about. What’s fun for ‘me’ gets tossed aside for the betterment of the group.

              As for battling rifts – yeah, I don’t think you’re going to have many problems there, except for the random “hey Cleric, heal us!” when things start to go belly-up.

      • Epiny says:

        Replying to this one so it doesn’t get smushed anymore.

        Maybe you should check out the offical forums, or Rift Zam forums before you say “no on cares about specs”. Or even Gordon’s own blog talked about specs… who is playing the game. People care about Specs, more so in Rift than any other game because of the variety.

        If Rifts or Raids truly become the end game of Rift we will see. This isn’t about growing up or evolving, I fully understand that the MMO genre is changing. However it will only change as much as the gamers allow it to. Rift is a mix of all other MMOs to this date, and it’s mixed very well. The gamers haven’t really changed. In 3 to 6 months this discussion will be pointless, because we will know the answer.

    • Gordon says:

      Hehe.

      Yeah, the problem is certainly when other players try to enforce the culture of following certain builds to be worthy of joining the group. I had that a lot recently in WoW and it put me off the game. I don’t want to be inspected when I join a PUG and told I’m not good enough because of X, Y or Z. Let’s hope that never happens to RIFT although no doubt it will require more factors than just a flexible and non-cookie cutter build system.

  15. vortal says:

    Have you guys heard of the Timmy/Johnny/Spike theorem (or player profile). It basically suggests that there are 3 kinds of gaming people (well this is for Magic so not all may apply). The Timmy, the guy who plays big spells and abilities and wants to wins with gigantic abilities that strike awe, he cares about his really awesome wins, but not how many. Then there is a Johnny he wants to explore abilities and be creative, he doesn’t care how many times he wins but he wants to use his specific strategies. Johnny enjoys using abilities and spells no one thinks is good and make them useful to his needs. Then there is a Spike who is all competitive wants to win, and will do anything to win (e.g. get talent builds from the internet, get a talent build from a successful friend etc.).

    I just explained it very briefly but if you want the whole explanation here it is. (it is for Magic which is a card game)
    http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mr11b

    This will all depend on whether you are a Timmy, Johnny or Spike. Timmys will want to use the biggest baddest abilities the game has to totally dominate his enemies, possibly wanting to use the cookie cutter build system, if it allows him to totally destroy his enemies. Johnnys will want to be strategic and creative experimenting with new and unknown talent builds (or souls whatever you perfer to call it). Spike will most likely use the cookie cutter build system, anything that it takes for him to win.

    Personally I am a hybrid, a Timmy/Johnny.

    • vortal says:

      I am not sure what this has to do with RIFT but, read it. It’s quite interesting.

      • Epiny says:

        He is describing the different mentalities of gamers. You either like being creative, like shock and awe, or just care about winning. As it pertains to Rift is that some people will play with Souls and create unique builds (Johnny), others will go with whatever makes the biggest boom, ie a glass cannon (Timmy) and others will want to be the best and use outside sources to find the best spec, ie cookie cutter specs (Spike).
        Interesting side note… I was playing in a Warfront last night and I was playing on my Shaman/Druid Cleric. After a couple minutes people started calling out the “cleric” in the WF for not healing. I brought up the point that I have all these other souls that are used for no healing, and asked why they weren’t yelling at the rogue or mage to heal. I was told that “cleric’s are main healers, role a warrior if I want to DPS” which didn’t make much sense. I can DPS as a traditionally tank class but not as a healer.
        I completely agree. I actually had a long post written yesterday but it wouldn’t let me post for some reason, probably for the better.

        @JC I do play Rift. Stop trying to disregard my argument by assuming I do not.

        • João Carlos says:

          @Epiny

          and the funny thing is that the cookie-cutter monster want you play a cleric healer…

          and you refuse it because you think it is funnier play a shaman/druid that is a dps melee.

          double standards…

          • Epiny says:

            It’s not a double standard at all. You seem to think that I believe everyone should use Cookie Cutter specs, I don’t. I’m saying the community will demand them, which I sort of pointed out in my post. This entire discussion was never about if I, or anyone on this blog, thinks you SHOULD use Cookie Cutter specs… we are saying people WILL use them.. and in turn demand them. (The damage parser is the first step)

            I also haven’t found a spec I enjoy healing with in WF’s that I also find good. Alot of the cleric’s healing spells have cast times so it’s very easy to LOS them. When I find one, online no doubt, that works I’ll probably use it. Until then I will run my DPS cleric and get top 2-3 DPS. If my DPS drops to low I will then look to a new spec.

            I actually did switch to my healing spec the next WF and even with 3 healers we didn’t win because we then lacked DPS to kill them.

            JC, it’s obvious no one is going to convince otherwise of your beliefs. I commend you on staying true to what you believe. My only suggestion is to stop trying to tear down my “character” in order to justify your argument. Even if I did think everyone SHOULD use cookie cutter specs, which I don’t, or if I had never played Rift, which I do, that shouldn’t matter. What I’m saying is that cookie cutter specs will eventually become popular in Rift and the community will pressure you into using it. To what extent will they apply that pressure, I don’t know yet.

        • vortal says:

          Wow……thats a way better explanation than mine.

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