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	<title>Comments on: Are F2P MMOs Just Not Very Good?</title>
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	<link>http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2012/08/05/are-f2p-mmos-just-not-very-good/</link>
	<description>A blog about MMORPGs like World of Warcraft (WoW) and Everquest 2 (EQ2)</description>
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		<title>By: yeoman79</title>
		<link>http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2012/08/05/are-f2p-mmos-just-not-very-good/comment-page-1/#comment-56674</link>
		<dc:creator>yeoman79</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 13:39:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=10586#comment-56674</guid>
		<description>Just to make things clear, DDO (if you indeed mean Dungeons &amp; Dragons Online) was originally subscription based.  Released in 2006, it changed to F2P late 2009.  So DDO also spent several years as a subscription based game, until poor subscription rates called for a revamp of its model.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to make things clear, DDO (if you indeed mean Dungeons &amp; Dragons Online) was originally subscription based.  Released in 2006, it changed to F2P late 2009.  So DDO also spent several years as a subscription based game, until poor subscription rates called for a revamp of its model.</p>
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		<title>By: hordemaster</title>
		<link>http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2012/08/05/are-f2p-mmos-just-not-very-good/comment-page-1/#comment-56663</link>
		<dc:creator>hordemaster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2012 23:38:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=10586#comment-56663</guid>
		<description>I feel I touched upon this topic very thoroughly in a recent post so I will just refer you to my blog post for said post, http://runningwithpugs.wordpress.com/2012/08/03/swtor-throws-in-the-lightsaber-goind-f2p/  if you should feel inclined to read on. But I do agree with the premise: most f2p games aren&#039;t very good in comparison to wow and a few other p2p games which have lasted the test of time like DAoC.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I feel I touched upon this topic very thoroughly in a recent post so I will just refer you to my blog post for said post, <a href="http://runningwithpugs.wordpress.com/2012/08/03/swtor-throws-in-the-lightsaber-goind-f2p/" rel="nofollow">http://runningwithpugs.wordpress.com/2012/08/03/swtor-throws-in-the-lightsaber-goind-f2p/</a>  if you should feel inclined to read on. But I do agree with the premise: most f2p games aren&#8217;t very good in comparison to wow and a few other p2p games which have lasted the test of time like DAoC.</p>
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		<title>By: Klepsacovic</title>
		<link>http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2012/08/05/are-f2p-mmos-just-not-very-good/comment-page-1/#comment-56583</link>
		<dc:creator>Klepsacovic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2012 18:23:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=10586#comment-56583</guid>
		<description>With MMOs, quantity has a quality all its own.  Raiding needs other players.  Auction houses and other economics need other players.  Even small-group content needs other players.  Without many other players, those who do play are subject to too much variance in their experience: prices are unstable, queues range from trivial to hours-long, raiding may become impossible.  Beside those direct effects, more players mean it is more likely that friends are or will play.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With MMOs, quantity has a quality all its own.  Raiding needs other players.  Auction houses and other economics need other players.  Even small-group content needs other players.  Without many other players, those who do play are subject to too much variance in their experience: prices are unstable, queues range from trivial to hours-long, raiding may become impossible.  Beside those direct effects, more players mean it is more likely that friends are or will play.</p>
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		<title>By: Aunaka</title>
		<link>http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2012/08/05/are-f2p-mmos-just-not-very-good/comment-page-1/#comment-56579</link>
		<dc:creator>Aunaka</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2012 14:12:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=10586#comment-56579</guid>
		<description>I really enjoyed the post, and wont&#039; bore the comment section with a comment blog of my own, I will simply say that I enjoyed SW:TOR as a one shot game, I paid no more for it than any other &quot;one shot through&quot; game. I&#039;m happy to hear it&#039;s going F2P so I can go back and enjoy the storylines of the other classes without pay a sub fee. 

I&#039;m really hoping that more games start doing the F2P, but I am more than willing to pay a sub fee if it provides me with dynamic end game content.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really enjoyed the post, and wont&#8217; bore the comment section with a comment blog of my own, I will simply say that I enjoyed SW:TOR as a one shot game, I paid no more for it than any other &#8220;one shot through&#8221; game. I&#8217;m happy to hear it&#8217;s going F2P so I can go back and enjoy the storylines of the other classes without pay a sub fee. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m really hoping that more games start doing the F2P, but I am more than willing to pay a sub fee if it provides me with dynamic end game content.</p>
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		<title>By: Sub Model Failure &#171; The Keyboard Warrior</title>
		<link>http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2012/08/05/are-f2p-mmos-just-not-very-good/comment-page-1/#comment-56576</link>
		<dc:creator>Sub Model Failure &#171; The Keyboard Warrior</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2012 10:16:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=10586#comment-56576</guid>
		<description>[...] This is taken from my reply over at We Fly Spitfires from his recent post entitled &#8216;Are F2P MMOs just not very good&#8216; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This is taken from my reply over at We Fly Spitfires from his recent post entitled &#8216;Are F2P MMOs just not very good&#8216; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: pitrelli</title>
		<link>http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2012/08/05/are-f2p-mmos-just-not-very-good/comment-page-1/#comment-56573</link>
		<dc:creator>pitrelli</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2012 09:21:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=10586#comment-56573</guid>
		<description>Hmm I think ‘Why are subscription MMOs failing?’ is more to the point.

In my opinion there is no singular reason into a failure of a subscription game, sure you could turn around and say ‘ because the game sucked ass fuzz’ but that wont really be telling the full story. Each game recently which has moved from sub to F2P will have there own factors on why they failed but I thought it would be interesting to list what I think are the main reasons:

- Target audience: Game developers need to be clearer and realistic on who exactly are their target audience, and how best they can serve that player base and how to develop a game for that specific audience. There is no point in creating a game and half assing parts of the game just to try and broaden the scope of player base. If one part of the game is below par then it impacts on the enjoyment of the game as a whole and creates a bad vibe amongst the player base which can spread fast.

- Budget Perhaps devs/companies need to lower their expectations and aim lower. Why not create a solid base of a game on a shoe string and strengthen as you move forward? What we are currently seeing is massive budgets being blown then investors becoming impatient when subs drop thus almost forcing the push of the panic button and the transition to F2P for a money grab. I don’t buy this ‘opening up the game’ for other players nonsense when making the switch to F2P, if that was the case then the game would have launched as F2P and designed as such.

- Same old, same old If you are going to clone World of Warcraft then at least make some decent additions. Lets face it once the first month of ‘new shiny’ has worn off is there any reason to stay with a game which plays exactly like the one you left? Probably not, especially since you may have a history and several high level toons in the original game. Rift just about got the balance right here.

- Lack of content updates &amp; vision for the future Bar Rift I cannot think of another MMO which has been well planned and releases content regularly. For me it looks like Rift actually held off release until they had also a couple of patches worth of content ready to ship. The fact so many MMOs try and include every feature into their game it sometimes has a detrimental effect on it and on the odd occasion genuinely feels like the devs do not know what direction the game will go to in the future….. which is in my opinion exactly what happened with SWTOR.

- Generic pricing system Box and sub model have stayed the same price for years now, why not release a game with a lower sub fee or low entrance cost? Test the water a bit. Or of course do a GW 2 and just release with a B2P and cash shop model off the bat. It shows you are confident in your game and gives the players a chance to reward the devs by spending some money. I for one will be buying Gems regularly in GW 2, not because I particularly like anything that is in the shop but because I want to reward them for making a bloody good game and being honest with the player base.

Soz for the wall of text</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm I think ‘Why are subscription MMOs failing?’ is more to the point.</p>
<p>In my opinion there is no singular reason into a failure of a subscription game, sure you could turn around and say ‘ because the game sucked ass fuzz’ but that wont really be telling the full story. Each game recently which has moved from sub to F2P will have there own factors on why they failed but I thought it would be interesting to list what I think are the main reasons:</p>
<p>- Target audience: Game developers need to be clearer and realistic on who exactly are their target audience, and how best they can serve that player base and how to develop a game for that specific audience. There is no point in creating a game and half assing parts of the game just to try and broaden the scope of player base. If one part of the game is below par then it impacts on the enjoyment of the game as a whole and creates a bad vibe amongst the player base which can spread fast.</p>
<p>- Budget Perhaps devs/companies need to lower their expectations and aim lower. Why not create a solid base of a game on a shoe string and strengthen as you move forward? What we are currently seeing is massive budgets being blown then investors becoming impatient when subs drop thus almost forcing the push of the panic button and the transition to F2P for a money grab. I don’t buy this ‘opening up the game’ for other players nonsense when making the switch to F2P, if that was the case then the game would have launched as F2P and designed as such.</p>
<p>- Same old, same old If you are going to clone World of Warcraft then at least make some decent additions. Lets face it once the first month of ‘new shiny’ has worn off is there any reason to stay with a game which plays exactly like the one you left? Probably not, especially since you may have a history and several high level toons in the original game. Rift just about got the balance right here.</p>
<p>- Lack of content updates &amp; vision for the future Bar Rift I cannot think of another MMO which has been well planned and releases content regularly. For me it looks like Rift actually held off release until they had also a couple of patches worth of content ready to ship. The fact so many MMOs try and include every feature into their game it sometimes has a detrimental effect on it and on the odd occasion genuinely feels like the devs do not know what direction the game will go to in the future….. which is in my opinion exactly what happened with SWTOR.</p>
<p>- Generic pricing system Box and sub model have stayed the same price for years now, why not release a game with a lower sub fee or low entrance cost? Test the water a bit. Or of course do a GW 2 and just release with a B2P and cash shop model off the bat. It shows you are confident in your game and gives the players a chance to reward the devs by spending some money. I for one will be buying Gems regularly in GW 2, not because I particularly like anything that is in the shop but because I want to reward them for making a bloody good game and being honest with the player base.</p>
<p>Soz for the wall of text</p>
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		<title>By: Telwyn</title>
		<link>http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2012/08/05/are-f2p-mmos-just-not-very-good/comment-page-1/#comment-56572</link>
		<dc:creator>Telwyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2012 07:34:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=10586#comment-56572</guid>
		<description>For years Blizzard were very successful at keeping the balance between quality of content and pace of content updates. Just enough to keep all the hard core players grinding away at the end game and enough new quests/zones and other distractions for the casual players to be happy. Personally I think WoW failed that balance with Cataclysm, there&#039;s been massive gaps between content - the 5 new character levels were too few as well. The drought of content while we wait for MoP is even worse. Pace of content is very important. 

Rift is bucking the trend of sub games transitioning to free to play because Trion have set a new standard for rapid content rollout. Compare that to Tera, which has had very little content since launch and arguably launched with very little content and you see the opposite story (there&#039;s a long thread about this on the Tera forums at the moment).

It seems for the last few years, most dev studios have not seriously planned for new content releases *in decent quantities* after launch. I was disappointed at how little actual new content SWTOR has had since launch so I&#039;m unsubbing next week. I have zero interest in end-game raiding, so far there&#039;s been little new story added except through large group activities. If Bioware had taken a lesson from Trion on frequent in-game events and a steady trickle of new quality storylines I think things would be very different for them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For years Blizzard were very successful at keeping the balance between quality of content and pace of content updates. Just enough to keep all the hard core players grinding away at the end game and enough new quests/zones and other distractions for the casual players to be happy. Personally I think WoW failed that balance with Cataclysm, there&#8217;s been massive gaps between content &#8211; the 5 new character levels were too few as well. The drought of content while we wait for MoP is even worse. Pace of content is very important. </p>
<p>Rift is bucking the trend of sub games transitioning to free to play because Trion have set a new standard for rapid content rollout. Compare that to Tera, which has had very little content since launch and arguably launched with very little content and you see the opposite story (there&#8217;s a long thread about this on the Tera forums at the moment).</p>
<p>It seems for the last few years, most dev studios have not seriously planned for new content releases *in decent quantities* after launch. I was disappointed at how little actual new content SWTOR has had since launch so I&#8217;m unsubbing next week. I have zero interest in end-game raiding, so far there&#8217;s been little new story added except through large group activities. If Bioware had taken a lesson from Trion on frequent in-game events and a steady trickle of new quality storylines I think things would be very different for them.</p>
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		<title>By: Syl</title>
		<link>http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2012/08/05/are-f2p-mmos-just-not-very-good/comment-page-1/#comment-56571</link>
		<dc:creator>Syl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2012 07:05:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=10586#comment-56571</guid>
		<description>An MMO must suck if it can pull off the sub? I don&#039;t agree with that.
I&#039;m not quite sure what F2P you&#039;re referring to; the all-free to play like Allods, or the buy-to-play (but subfree) GW2 or in that case also SWTOR now.

in any case, conquering your own share in a limited market that is at the brink of complete saturation as we know it, is a very hard undertaking for latecomers; as Stabs said, some big spots are taken already - WoW and Rift both deliver the polished and classic promise, EvE is a space opera, LotrO got the lore and fantasy geeks and now TSW is appealing to horror fans. there&#039;s limited space and timing is a big part of it, too. so unless you&#039;re not incredibly new, innovative and refreshing while ALSO managing to deliver a polished product, it isn&#039;t very wise to launch an MMO that comes both with account and sub costs.....

I was baffled Bioware even attempted this - just as I am baffled at TSW; I will count the days until they go subfree, probably as soon as both GW2 and MoP have launched. right now Funcom benefits from the summer hole and players waiting for the big hits later this year, being curious. but TSW appeals to a small niche and I don&#039;t see them pulling the sub off longterm. there&#039;s also the mistake (imo) they made combat wise; they probably could&#039;ve gotten more shooter and zombie-killer fans on board had they not made it an incredibly boring MMO-style auto-attack and auto-aim deal. Big mistake.

so, do these games suck? no, but the developers are rather late to notice what&#039;s going on right now and think they can pull off stunts that maybe would&#039;ve worked 7 years ago. in Funcom&#039;s case this is particularly surprising (thinking AoC here). but maybe they just wanted to try. ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An MMO must suck if it can pull off the sub? I don&#8217;t agree with that.<br />
I&#8217;m not quite sure what F2P you&#8217;re referring to; the all-free to play like Allods, or the buy-to-play (but subfree) GW2 or in that case also SWTOR now.</p>
<p>in any case, conquering your own share in a limited market that is at the brink of complete saturation as we know it, is a very hard undertaking for latecomers; as Stabs said, some big spots are taken already &#8211; WoW and Rift both deliver the polished and classic promise, EvE is a space opera, LotrO got the lore and fantasy geeks and now TSW is appealing to horror fans. there&#8217;s limited space and timing is a big part of it, too. so unless you&#8217;re not incredibly new, innovative and refreshing while ALSO managing to deliver a polished product, it isn&#8217;t very wise to launch an MMO that comes both with account and sub costs&#8230;..</p>
<p>I was baffled Bioware even attempted this &#8211; just as I am baffled at TSW; I will count the days until they go subfree, probably as soon as both GW2 and MoP have launched. right now Funcom benefits from the summer hole and players waiting for the big hits later this year, being curious. but TSW appeals to a small niche and I don&#8217;t see them pulling the sub off longterm. there&#8217;s also the mistake (imo) they made combat wise; they probably could&#8217;ve gotten more shooter and zombie-killer fans on board had they not made it an incredibly boring MMO-style auto-attack and auto-aim deal. Big mistake.</p>
<p>so, do these games suck? no, but the developers are rather late to notice what&#8217;s going on right now and think they can pull off stunts that maybe would&#8217;ve worked 7 years ago. in Funcom&#8217;s case this is particularly surprising (thinking AoC here). but maybe they just wanted to try. <img src='http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/wp-content/plugins/tango-smilies/tango/face-wink.png' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: bhagpuss</title>
		<link>http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2012/08/05/are-f2p-mmos-just-not-very-good/comment-page-1/#comment-56565</link>
		<dc:creator>bhagpuss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2012 00:42:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=10586#comment-56565</guid>
		<description>Excellent analysis by Stabs there, almost all of which tallies with my own experience. Not sure how many see gaming the Freemium rulesets as additional content but I certainly do.

That said, I completely refute the Tobold hypothesis. WoW categorically does not set the bar for anything other than popularity. To benchmark against WoW for quality is a s ludicrous as benchmarking against The Osmonds for musical quality in the early 1970s. Popular never has and never will equate to quality.

I waited more than five years to play WoW and when I did I found it moderately entertaining. It&#039;s a classic three-month MMO, which is exactly how long it took me to lose interest in it. Naturally, had it been my first MMO, as it was for more people than had played all previous MMOs put together, it would operate as a different benchmark, that of &quot;first MMO&quot;. My first MMO was Everquest and I still judge all new MMOs by that standard and probably always will.

This leads me to also refute the Rossignol hypothesis. He might have a short attention span and be easily bored but that doesn&#039;t apply to all of us.Taking EQ2 as an example, I&#039;ve played it pretty heavily since it launched in 2004 and the novelty hasn&#039;t worn off yet. I know people who are still playing Everquest regularly after more than a decade and I myself still often revisit it and have a great time. 

Some people need constant novelty to be entertained and others don&#039;t. I&#039;m in the latter camp. If I like something, I like it. The like doesn&#039;t wear out easily, especially when, as in the case of MMOs, nothing is static. 

On the substantive issue of F2p vs subscription I think it&#039;s the wrong argument. It comes down to the quality, or more particularly the addictiveness of the game. Put simply, if the game is good enough, the payment model is largely irrelevant, at least from the player&#039;s point of view. Really, the least interesting thing about any MMO is how you pay for it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent analysis by Stabs there, almost all of which tallies with my own experience. Not sure how many see gaming the Freemium rulesets as additional content but I certainly do.</p>
<p>That said, I completely refute the Tobold hypothesis. WoW categorically does not set the bar for anything other than popularity. To benchmark against WoW for quality is a s ludicrous as benchmarking against The Osmonds for musical quality in the early 1970s. Popular never has and never will equate to quality.</p>
<p>I waited more than five years to play WoW and when I did I found it moderately entertaining. It&#8217;s a classic three-month MMO, which is exactly how long it took me to lose interest in it. Naturally, had it been my first MMO, as it was for more people than had played all previous MMOs put together, it would operate as a different benchmark, that of &#8220;first MMO&#8221;. My first MMO was Everquest and I still judge all new MMOs by that standard and probably always will.</p>
<p>This leads me to also refute the Rossignol hypothesis. He might have a short attention span and be easily bored but that doesn&#8217;t apply to all of us.Taking EQ2 as an example, I&#8217;ve played it pretty heavily since it launched in 2004 and the novelty hasn&#8217;t worn off yet. I know people who are still playing Everquest regularly after more than a decade and I myself still often revisit it and have a great time. </p>
<p>Some people need constant novelty to be entertained and others don&#8217;t. I&#8217;m in the latter camp. If I like something, I like it. The like doesn&#8217;t wear out easily, especially when, as in the case of MMOs, nothing is static. </p>
<p>On the substantive issue of F2p vs subscription I think it&#8217;s the wrong argument. It comes down to the quality, or more particularly the addictiveness of the game. Put simply, if the game is good enough, the payment model is largely irrelevant, at least from the player&#8217;s point of view. Really, the least interesting thing about any MMO is how you pay for it.</p>
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		<title>By: browolf</title>
		<link>http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2012/08/05/are-f2p-mmos-just-not-very-good/comment-page-1/#comment-56564</link>
		<dc:creator>browolf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2012 00:33:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/?p=10586#comment-56564</guid>
		<description>Maybe the problem these days is the there&#039;s trade off between the amount of high quality content people want and the time/money it would take to make it. People have shot themselves in the foot by desiring MMOs to have the content depth/immersion of single player games. Apparently it&#039;s simply not possible to deliver. 

People may hate the grindy games of old but cost wise were probably a lot cheaper to make. If you can persuade people to stick the grind, there&#039;s less chance of people running out of content as you can stretch the grind out indefinitely. Which is pretty much what ffxi has done to keep itself going.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe the problem these days is the there&#8217;s trade off between the amount of high quality content people want and the time/money it would take to make it. People have shot themselves in the foot by desiring MMOs to have the content depth/immersion of single player games. Apparently it&#8217;s simply not possible to deliver. </p>
<p>People may hate the grindy games of old but cost wise were probably a lot cheaper to make. If you can persuade people to stick the grind, there&#8217;s less chance of people running out of content as you can stretch the grind out indefinitely. Which is pretty much what ffxi has done to keep itself going.</p>
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